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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2158
Location: Indiana
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 Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: UFO's And Science |
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A thread to explore the possibility that science might not be currently equipped ,due to paradigm bias, to handle a marginal paranormal problem like the ufo enigma. Carol said in another thread she thought science could not fnd the answer, and I disagreed and was a bit churlish (I apologize carol) . She could be right , and many of the people I listen to and read on this tend to think it might also be the case. This is especially true if it is not space aliens but something beyond our current models of science.
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"The evidence indicates that UFOs are not nuts and bolts craft driven by flesh and blood humanoid aliens . They are something quite different . The direct are not the only or even the most important aspect; social and cultural circumstances surrounding ufo events must be considered as part of the phenomenon. One should examine affects of ufos and observe the conditions around their manifestations . This is an inditect approach but it provides more insight than studying the sightings themselves.
UFO phenonena are fundamentally liminal ,interstitial, betwixt and between , and anti-structural . UFOs inhabit the realm between heaven and earth (a binary opposition) much like spirits and angels and they share common properties with them. In this domain we also find the blurring of imagination and reality, another binary oppositon."
-George Hansen from The Trickster and the Paranormal, page 248, pb ed.
(The ETH is essentially misnamed and the 'hypothesis' in actuallity is more of a foundational premise. US ufologists rarely test the ETH; rather they assume it and derive ideas accordingly.)
"Ufology differs from normal science in the subject matter. It lies in the realm of the liminal , the paramormal, and the supernatural.
It is an enchanted area where the rules of the rational world do not apply. Those with only a casual aquaintance with UFO phenomena may not realize the descriptions of extraterrestrial aliens are virtually identical to those of fairies . demons, and other mythical figures. Jacques Vallee amply demonstrated this in his book Passport To Magonia (1969). However, many leading US ufologists still abhor such ideas. They see them as discrediting their field . Instead they have conceptualized the phenomenon as ET 'flesh and blood' humanoids traveling in 'nuts and bolts' flying saucers , thereby rationalizing them, keeping them in the normal world and apart from the supernatural. Those ufologists are correct in seeing that associations with the supernatural taint their field and make it unattractive to establishment scientists.. However, by suppressing the paranormal aspects , and removing them from ufology's purview, they misunderstand the nature of the phenomena and become vulnerable to them. Ufologists perennial victimization by hoaxers is but one example."
-From The Trickster and the Paranormal by G Hansen: p262 ,pb ed.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Bruce Duensing
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Re: UFO's And Science |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
A thread to explore the possibility that science might not be currently equipped ,due to paradigm bias, to handle a marginal paranormal problem like the ufo enigma. Carol said in another thread she thought science could not fnd the answer, and I disagreed and was a bit churlish (I apologize carol) . She could be right , and many of the people I listen to and read on this tend to think it might also be the case. This is especially true if it is not space aliens but something beyond our current models of science.
--------------------------------------
"The evidence indicates that UFOs are not nuts and bolts craft driven by flesh and blood humanoid aliens . They are something quite different . The direct are not the only or even the most important aspect; social and cultural circumstances surrounding ufo events must be considered as part of the phenomenon. One should examine affects of ufos and observe the conditions around their manifestations . This is an inditect approach but it provides more insight than studying the sightings themselves.
UFO phenonena are fundamentally liminal ,interstitial, betwixt and between , and anti-structural . UFOs inhabit the realm between heaven and earth (a binary opposition) much like spirits and angels and they share common properties with them. In this domain we also find the blurring of imagination and reality, another binary oppositon."
-George Hansen from The Trickster and the Paranormal, page 248, pb ed.
(The ETH is essentially misnamed and the 'hypothesis' in actuallity is more of a foundational premise. US ufologists rarely test the ETH; rather they assume it and derive ideas accordingly.)
"Ufology differs from normal science in the subject matter. It lies in the realm of the liminal , the paramormal, and the supernatural.
It is an enchanted area where the rules of the rational world do not apply. Those with only a casual aquaintance with UFO phenomena may not realize the descriptions of extraterrestrial aliens are virtually identical to those of fairies . demons, and other mythical figures. Jacques Vallee amply demonstrated this in his book Passport To Magonia (1969). However, many leading US ufologists still abhor such ideas. They see them as discrediting their field . Instead they have conceptualized the phenomenon as ET 'flesh and blood' humanoids traveling in 'nuts and bolts' flying saucers , thereby rationalizing them, keeping them in the normal world and apart from the supernatural. Those ufologists are correct in seeing that associations with the supernatural taint their field and make it unattractive to establishment scientists.. However, by suppressing the paranormal aspects , and removing them from ufology's purview, they misunderstand the nature of the phenomena and become vulnerable to them. Ufologists perennial victimization by hoaxers is but one example."
-From The Trickster and the Paranormal by G Hansen: p262 ,pb ed. |
When I was much younger, my compulsive curiosity led me by the nose into this misnamed ufo phenomenon, as if this sort of interest back then was like stamp collecting...in other words, most people who have an interest in this probably do so, obviously because they are curious..maybe some have some obscure agenda buried so deeply in them that they seek proof of this or that through the phenomenon without admitting it...even to themselves. The other side is when the object of your interest turns around for a reason unknown to you and takes a personal interest in your affairs and asserts itself amidst them, and worse...your family. I contacted Mr Hansen a few years ago, when my answering machine began to receive very strange messages directed at me that upset my family...whatever and whomever it was could do things very much like the hotel scene in Mothman...an uncanny ability. Mr Hansen referred me to another gentleman who specialized in this sort of thing...in other words if you look deeply into this subject, it isnt just about flying machines that are phantasms...it is a spectrum....lately my 16 year old daughter has had some troubling experiences...my wife to a lesser extent...I sense whatever this is it knows it can reach me through them which I find very troubling...neither of them have had any interest in the paranormal per say...now they do. The point of this response is that it is one thing to study this if you will separated from it experientially and another to be enfolded into it. The more I go along the more respect I have for John Keel. I have to be honest with you, there have been times I wish I could turn my back on the whole thing but its too late in the game for wishful fantasies. Science has its uses, but this phenomenon turns on a dime...and will not sit for a portrait. The PEAR Lab at Princeton, in my book, was the only serious research that has been done to date and perhaps ever will...as long as who and what we are remains a mystery...the phenomenon will remain as elusive as our own observation of it. Period, end of sentence.
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3226
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dr.Wu weve been cyber friends for too long to allow a little thing like that to mean anything,fuggetaboutit. Now this piece you just presented is excellent,its what Ive been feeling instinctively all along.Youve got to have the right people in pursuit of this and I just read Bruces post,Bruce your thinking may be getting to close for the others comfort.I dont have to worry about this portion of the phenomenon,whatever it is it also knows Im limited in my ability to think this stuff thru,therefore I believe Im protected. Listen! Did you hear that? Ut oh...ok,its going to rain tomorrow so Ive got to do my thing today.Dr.Wu when I come on again I intend to read your post once more,ahh,its almost like being validated,only I wonder what took you guys so long..ducks.
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3226
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Bruce Duensing
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Carol Nistri wrote: |
| Dr.Wu weve been cyber friends for too long to allow a little thing like that to mean anything,fuggetaboutit. Now this piece you just presented is excellent,its what Ive been feeling instinctively all along.Youve got to have the right people in pursuit of this and I just read Bruces post,Bruce your thinking may be getting to close for the others comfort.I dont have to worry about this portion of the phenomenon,whatever it is it also knows Im limited in my ability to think this stuff thru,therefore I believe Im protected. Listen! Did you hear that? Ut oh...ok,its going to rain tomorrow so Ive got to do my thing today.Dr.Wu when I come on again I intend to read your post once more,ahh,its almost like being validated,only I wonder what took you guys so long..ducks. |
I think (we) are a locus or processor of energetic information fields whether it is integrated into consciousness, the autonomic nervous system genetics..what have you, that the sum is greater than the aggregate pieces and that in order to understand anything about the paranormal, we have to educate ourselves in the area of quantum theories of consciousness that Stanford University among several are pursuing..superstition has no value to me..nor old incoherent paradigms...all of this is an enormous challenge...and is much more fascinating and strange than any supposed, cartoonish alien. What is this business of "No suitable nodes are available to serve your request?" I keep trying to post this....
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3226
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sigh.,I know Bruce Ive been getting that message all morning,what a pain in the butt,but hang in there these glitches come and go we just have to grin and bear it.
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Bruce Duensing
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Carol Nistri wrote: |
| sigh.,I know Bruce Ive been getting that message all morning,what a pain in the butt,but hang in there these glitches come and go we just have to grin and bear it. |
its the same message I receive from my mind before I have my morning coffee. 
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2158
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Carol,
You do understand that what Keel, Harpur, Vallee, and of course Bruce and myself are saying is that UFO's do not represent space aliens ...but something else. In other words , the ETH is most likely wrong.
Are you ok with that?
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3226
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| oh man,now youve gone and cornered me,pouts.If I say Im ok with that that will mean that I accept it instead of ET and nuts and bolts craft.Ive tried and tried to understand your point of view and Keels and Harpurs and it just wont compute for me.What I was referring to when I said I felt this instinctively is that science alone wont be the answer,there just not equipped for the task.Boy,I hope that didnt sound snitty I just mean that there trained as scientist to think a certain way and to see that that which they investigate meet there standards,its not going to be that way with this subject.The person or persons are going to have a background that sees this phenomonon as part of our world,just as natural as breathing.This has got to be my last post this board is so slow today if I wasnt making dinner I wouldnt be on at all. See ya tomorrow everyone.
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2158
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Carol Nistri wrote: |
| oh man,now youve gone and cornered me,pouts.If I say Im ok with that that will mean that I accept it instead of ET and nuts and bolts craft.Ive tried and tried to understand your point of view and Keels and Harpurs and it just wont compute for me.What I was referring to when I said I felt this instinctively is that science alone wont be the answer,there just not equipped for the task.Boy,I hope that didnt sound snitty I just mean that there trained as scientist to think a certain way and to see that that which they investigate meet there standards,its not going to be that way with this subject.The person or persons are going to have a background that sees this phenomonon as part of our world,just as natural as breathing.This has got to be my last post this board is so slow today if I wasnt making dinner I wouldnt be on at all. See ya tomorrow everyone. |
Well..you are contradicting your self then. If it is 'nuts and bolts' then science is the correct way to go..period. There can be no other way to solve an objective real visit by space aliens.
On the other hand if the mystery is something other than an objective phenomenon, ie; interdimensional ,metaphysical, supernatural, then science might not be the correct tool.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3226
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| ok youve got a point there,but it could be that its a real nuts and bolts craft that behaves in such a way as to throw science for a loop,it defys the acts of physics or so Im told. How the heck is an earthborn university trained scientist even going to admit that much to himself and not get laughed at by his peers? UFOs slamming across the sky,ufos coming to an abrupt stop.dropping like a stone,taking off at right angles,cripes what the scientist has to do is to admit to himself that we dont know anything when it comes to this kind of technology.Thats going to take one special kind of scientist and my thinking is that its so instilled in their minds that theve got to be able to duplicate this or that event that the task is all but impossible. The other side of that coin is they just might resort to using faith that should be reserved for things other than craft doing the impossible.
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Bruce Duensing
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
| Carol Nistri wrote: |
| oh man,now youve gone and cornered me,pouts.If I say Im ok with that that will mean that I accept it instead of ET and nuts and bolts craft.Ive tried and tried to understand your point of view and Keels and Harpurs and it just wont compute for me.What I was referring to when I said I felt this instinctively is that science alone wont be the answer,there just not equipped for the task.Boy,I hope that didnt sound snitty I just mean that there trained as scientist to think a certain way and to see that that which they investigate meet there standards,its not going to be that way with this subject.The person or persons are going to have a background that sees this phenomonon as part of our world,just as natural as breathing.This has got to be my last post this board is so slow today if I wasnt making dinner I wouldnt be on at all. See ya tomorrow everyone. |
Well..you are contradicting your self then. If it is 'nuts and bolts' then science is the correct way to go..period. There can be no other way to solve an objective real visit by space aliens.
On the other hand if the mystery is something other than an objective phenomenon, ie; interdimensional ,metaphysical, supernatural, then science might not be the correct tool. |
Dr Wu...this ones for you, as a response to your post.
Energetic Information Fields and The Paranormal
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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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oK forgive my ignorance on this while I ask a few questions. Is this model, this way of looking at the paranormal, applicable across the board. I mean is a ufo sighting and encountering a bigfoot essentially one and the same experience, or does it mean that all paranormal phenomena, while distinct in their own right, share certain aspects or commonality either of origin, purpose or meaning.
I've got to bare my soul on this and say I find Keels veiw of the universe incredibly disturbing, I don't want to be a plaything of the gods, or at least want the comfort that beyond the spiritual hooligans exists something with a higher purpose. And to what extent does our own consciousness play a part and therefore how 'real' is it all.
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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Bruce Duensing
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| roadghost wrote: |
oK forgive my ignorance on this while I ask a few questions. Is this model, this way of looking at the paranormal, applicable across the board. I mean is a ufo sighting and encountering a bigfoot essentially one and the same experience, or does it mean that all paranormal phenomena, while distinct in their own right, share certain aspects or commonality either of origin, purpose or meaning.
I've got to bare my soul on this and say I find Keels veiw of the universe incredibly disturbing, I don't want to be a plaything of the gods, or at least want the comfort that beyond the spiritual hooligans exists something with a higher purpose. And to what extent does our own consciousness play a part and therefore how 'real' is it all. |
Possibly is the most honest and direct answer I have. As far as authoritarian models of "God" or "Hooligans" that is your row to hoe and I do not want to interfere by assuming I know something that you do not. The extent between being the subject of experience and the relationship of what is experienced, I think you would agree...hinges on you. The essence of quantum theory is that the observer participates in a experience assertively and can and does effect a result in what is observed. As far as any mythology you or I can layer over this as a meaningful value is strictly up to us, or in this case...you.
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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Bruce…
I’m not sure I’m really comfortable with authoritarian gods or God for that matter and think the whole idea of a higher being needs to be approached with an open minded or open ended attitude. I referenced spiritual hooligans, as you mentioned you had respect for Keel, and from what I’ve read of his work (not extensive admittedly, Mothman Prophecies and Haunted Planet) he seems to have posited the idea of beings from the ‘Superspectrum’ using humanity as pawns. As I said not a notion I’m fond of and I wondered if you shared his view.
Like Carol I remain confused and perplexed. I’m as guilty as anyone of applying labels and ascribing meanings and actions to my phantasm’s. I think that’s a very common trait that’s led us all up some creeks without a paddle in the past, yet understandable to an extent, when you take into account the shear confusion that goes with the territory. People have a need to simplify and then cleave to their own interpretations. In fighting becomes the order of the day between conflicting factions, as is seen in the UFO community.
Perversely though I’m re-assured that my very involvement at the quantum level is assertive enough to make this thing exactly what I want/need it to be anyway, which is a fuzzy suspicion I’ve always had so all speculations are fun and indulgent.
Hope this made some sort of sense….remember I’m a novice.
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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