Proving the phenomenon is real.

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

UFOs: Proving the Phenomenon is Real - The Case against Debunkers
By Will Hart

original source | fair use notice

Summary: In a recent exchange with a UFO lawyer I was assured that he could prove the existence of UFOs in a court of law. This brings up a very important point regarding the history of UFO investigations that raises questions about the rules of evidence used to judge whether UFOs are a real phenomenon or not. The lawyer could justifiably make that claim, however, scientists routinely say there is not enough evidence to prove the existence of the phenomenon. What gives?

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In a recent exchange with a UFO lawyer I was assured that he could prove the existence of UFOs in a court of law. This brings up a very important point regarding the history of UFO investigations that raises questions about the rules of evidence used to judge whether UFOs are a real phenomenon or not. The lawyer could justifiably make that claim, however, scientists routinely say there is not enough evidence to prove the existence of the phenomenon. What gives?

The problem has to do with the way the phenomenon has been classified and defined or rather not clearly or correctly classified or defined. Most of the time UFOs have been studied as if they were a natural phenomenon and the rules of evidence that apply to the physical sciences have been applied. Those rules are stringent as they involve such subjects as chemical and atomic structures. When placed in this category the UFO phenomenon fails to meet the criteria of scientific proof, for obvious reasons. The phenomenon is not a natural one. We have no control over it and scientists cannot perform repeatable experiments to ascertain its nature.

It is a matter of classification and that is why a lawyer can accurately make the claim that sufficient evidence does exist to prove it in a court of law. Physical scientists do not consider things like eyewitness reports and circumstantial or anecdotal evidence. A court of law does. There is no single set of standards that can be applied across the board to define what scientific evidence is. Physical scientists cannot deny the veracity of sociological or psychological theories simply because the evidence to support them is based upon a different degree of rigor.

There is an acknowledged division between the hard and soft sciences, for example, chemistry and sociology. You dont approach the two disciplines in the same way.

Now, let us compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges to gain some insight into why there is such a divergence of opinion about the UFO phenomenon. First we have to ask, would it be fair to let a chemist evaluate the credibility of a sociological theory using the standards of evidence and protocols that he normally uses in his chemistry investigations? No, that is apples and oranges. That is exactly what has happened in the history of UFO investigations. Skeptical scientists have consistently claimed that the phenomenon cannot be proven and by their standards they have been right.

But those are the wrong standards to apply because UFOs are not natural events or processes and the preponderance of evidence suggests this is the case. So we have this historical split and ongoing ambiguity with highly credible witnesses reporting sightings and encounters with UFOs that are followed by routine dismissals from scientists that are reported in the media in a variety of UFO articles. What is the general publics reaction? The public is quite naturally torn and confused.

Most people do not want to think of pilots, policemen and radar operators as well as various military personnel as being incapable of distinguishing between a UFO and swamp gas or a UFO and a weather balloon. These are trained professionals that we depend upon for our safety. Yet thousands upon thousands of reports by such individuals have been rejected or downgraded because there is no scientific proof and therefore they must be treated as nothing more than anecdotal reports.

As we noted above, hard scientists do not have much use for such evidence and yet these are the kinds of factual observations made by credible witnesses that legal cases and sociology are built upon. People also want to have confidence in science and as we have seen scientists have not been wrong. But neither have they made it clear just what they mean by scientific proof in the context of UFOs and the media has not picked up on this subtle, confusing issue.

No, there is not enough physical hard science evidence to prove the phenomena is real in this context. Yes, there is enough legal and soft science type evidence to prove the phenomena is real in this context. How do we resolve the resultant ambiguity and ascertain the ultimate reality of the phenomenon? Put it in its proper classification and definition as an unnatural phenomenon under the purview of such disciplines as sociology, cultural anthropology, social psychology, etc.

While the skeptical scientists and debunkers have been correct, to a degree, their assertion that there is no hard evidence is incorrect. Radar operators have observed them, photographs and video clips containing recorded sound have all been documented and they corroborate UFO sightings. This is hard evidence that substantiates the reality of the phenomenon.

Does it matter? How we classify the phenomenon makes all the difference in the world. Accepting that it is an established scientifically proven reality under the less stringent rules of soft science would remove the stigma from witnesses. Removing the stigma is important because as Stanton Friedman has pointed out it is a taboo subject in academia. But more importantly classifying it correctly as a non-natural phenomenon allows investigators to start focusing on the right questions instead of looking for hard evidence among the ever-increasing amount of data that they have accumulated.

911 taught us a lesson about not connecting dots and not making the cogent inferences and acting on them. The data was there and several analysts were correctly interpreting it. But the executive part of the organizational brain of the FBI and CIA did not cooperate with the data collection and analysis part, which resulted in an intelligence breakdown.

We have to take the UFO phenomenon seriously until we have ascertained whether it poses a threat or not. We cannot allow the government to withhold important information and we cannot continue to come at the phenomenon from the wrong angle. Individual UFO investigators and organizations need to cooperate and share information just as much as government intelligence agencies do because there is no official (overt) investigation being conducted into the phenomenon at present, which could be the biggest intelligence blunder of all!

If debunkers want to argue against these propositions they should do so using a cost/benefit scenario. What do we have to lose by accepting the premise that the evidence proving UFOs is real? I submit we have nothing to lose. But what do we have to lose by accepting the premise that it is not real? We have nothing to gain and everything to lose if we are proven wrong and the worst case scenario emerges.

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

I for one would love to see all of this go to a court of law,Id fly wherever it was being heard just to be there.

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

I especially liked the last paragraph!!!
I have always said that you cannot apply human or earthly logic to aliens.
They really do belong in a separate category and must be studied in that way.
Good find, Carol!!!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

I agree Scam,I remember going to Borders when it first opened to look up the latest ufo books,I was shocked that they had chosen to put them in the Occult section,its the placement of this subject into the paranormal thats made things so difficult .

graylien · Joined: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 174 Location: UK

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

Gray
"...faith in UFOs"
~
There is a big difference, imo, from believing that UFOs are real vs having "faith" in them.
Belief is intellectual agreement...faith is totally without logic or reason.
There is enough soft evidence to base a belief in the reality of UFOs.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

Scam said,"There is a big difference, imo, from believing that UFOs are real vs having "faith" in them.
Belief is intellectual agreement...faith is totally without logic or reason.
There is enough soft evidence to base a belief in the reality of UFOs."

well done Scam,its about time someone said exactly that,I for one have had it with this faith business being shoved in our faces everytime we decide that flying saucers actually exist.
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**Skeptical** · Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject:

I am sure that a really good lawyer could easily convince a jury that UFOs are a real, anomalous phenomenon. At worst, the lawyer could introduce enough doubt that any twelve reasonable people would agree that the case against the UFO is hardly open-and-shut. But, at the end of the day, it means nothing. As much as we hate the idea, the only court that makes a lick of difference in this case is the court of science. If science or some equally reliable analog is not convinced of the truly anomalous nature of UFOs, we will never get very far from where we are right now.

Assuming that we are not completely making this stuff up, we are dealing with entities that completely control this situation. It doesn't matter whether they are from another planet, dimension or time, they will present themselves when it serves their purposes to do so. I just don't think we have the capability to trick or trap them into doing anything before they are ready and, apparently they are not ready.

The thing that saddens me is that we have almost completely turned away solid, investigative, objective research and field work. The tag line for an upcoming UFO conference says it all - "It's not about lights in the sky. It's about lies on the ground." No one seems interested in the phenomenon itself anymore. They are just interested in pinning blame or conspiracy on someone. It is a cult of dysfunctional personalities that are no more capable of delivering answers than a Magic Eight-Ball.

If we do anything in 2008, we need to seek out those doing real, objective research and support them. If we change nothing, we can hardly expect different results.

S
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson

Will Sheephogan · Joined: 22 Sep 2007 Posts: 624 Location: Pahrump Nevada

Skep.... Dear sir... would you kindly ban the word "UFO" from this forum. It would force an issue in ones mind of accuracy if we just said that word no longer exists.

Smile

_________________
SOMNIUM MENS est IANUA ut INFINITIO

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

good post Skep,I heard part of a C2C show last night and something occured to me,on it was a guy that goes by Bad Astromener,in part they talked about dark matter,now no one can prove so far that dark matter even exists but scientists are falling all over themselves to prove it does,I thought they wernt supposed to do this?

**Skeptical** · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:45 am Post subject:

Scientists have observed that the matter we can see does not account for all of the measurable mass in the universe. They're pretty confident that their computations are correct so they hypothesized that there is another kind of matter out there that cannot be seen. Dark Matter is just a catch-all term for that missing mass - although we still have no clue as to its actual nature. The important thing to remember though is that, even though it is "invisible", its presence can be measured. Its existence is not contingent on a YouTube clip or the testimony of some guy named Bob who took a wrong turn one night down a lonely country road.

Another example of this - scientists are curious about why gravity is so weak. They want to know why the gravitational pull of a massive planet can be negated by a simple refrigerator magnet. There are serious scientists out there who are speculating that gravity is the way it is because it has to cut through multiple dimensions or parallel universes. Weird stuff.

So, for every old, stodgy scientist we see in the movies, there are some renegades out there who are thinking about and experimenting with things we can't even wrap our minds around.

S
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

you know Skep,the scientists will pursue dark matter because they have a hunch its for real,there all excited about doing this,I cant believe than that they dont get together and discuss the merits of this case or that,theres so so much material that accumulated now that they could have fun with. Tis a puzzlement.Its sure to be a funding issue but the natural curiosity of the scientist has got to be tweaked by all the talk of u,um flying saucer sightings,nods to Will,btw Will ask Terri if shes interested in that dvd that Paul Kimball sent our way,I have it and can include it with the Meiers dvd if shes interested,the Paul Kimball dvd is quiet good btw.

Will Sheephogan · Joined: 22 Sep 2007 Posts: 624 Location: Pahrump Nevada

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3352

well now thats downright scary Will,that means they will always be dancing out of sight just ahead of us,I dont like the sound of that.

**Skeptical** · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: