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Skeptical Site Admin

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 1659 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: Hell Hound stalks couple at anniversary party? |
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A number of months ago, the UFO Iconoclasts made a profound observation - they noted that people who had been through what should have been life-changing UFO or paranormal events, almost invariably picked up with their lives where they left off - no better and no worse for their experience.
Here, however is the exception to that rule. A weird photo taken at a anniversary party may have been the incentive needed to help a man kick drugs:
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=AED2ADB9E79DFE396E52B617BA2D2292?contentId=4787322&version=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
I imagine this is really just another example of our human tendency to seek order out of chaos and faces out of random patterns. But if it takes the head of Cerberus to get a man off drugs, then I say, good dog!
S _________________ "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 635 Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Why can't it just be a dog? _________________ I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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Skeptical Site Admin

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 1659 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Now, Atar, if it were just a dog, it might have turned out something like this -
S _________________ "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 311 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I read the story somewhere else, but the link doesn't work. The story I read had a "demon" appearing over the shoulder of a man at a party, and he saw it as a warning to go drug free.
Photography is odd, as seeing is not always believing. Odder still is seeing patterns in light and shadow, which leads to questions whether or not the patterns actually exist. IMHO, the difference between skeptics and believers is hardwired in the brain. Skeptics often miss real patterns, but seldom see false patterns. When they do, they give it a jocular spin, not taking it seriously.
Believers often create patterns out of light and shadow, and imbue them with meaning. They do this rather often, but they never miss a pattern that is actually there. Which has greater survival value according to evolution?
I'm with those who see Mary in a tree, even if such a phenomena hearkens back to ages before the image would ever have been identified as Mary. I'm with those who see demons, ghosts and spirit dogs in photos, and I'm with those who investigate the Fortean patterns that skeptics deride.
When all is said and done, the patterns subjective, but the meaning the patterns are imbued with tell us much more about being human than does the cold reason that's allegedly just a biochemical process in the brain. _________________ Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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Skeptical Site Admin

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 1659 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I guess that original link was dropped from the source website. I remember the photo very well, however. If it was a trick of light and shadow, it was a very bizarre one indeed. Atar suggested that the alleged hell hound may actually have been just a plain old dog. Obviously, that's possible but it doesn't seem likely.
Somer - interesting observation about how different personality types show different aptitude for pattern perception.
S _________________ "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 311 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Skeptical wrote: |
I guess that original link was dropped from the source website. I remember the photo very well, however. If it was a trick of light and shadow, it was a very bizarre one indeed. Atar suggested that the alleged hell hound may actually have been just a plain old dog. Obviously, that's possible but it doesn't seem likely.
Somer - interesting observation about how different personality types show different aptitude for pattern perception.
S |
It's not just personality types. It appears to be linked to brain chemistry, which to a reductionist might underlie our personality types.
Ataraxik and Dr. Wu would be interested in Sam Harris' work on the relationship of smell to deciding what's right and wrong:
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/my-nose-my-brain-my-faith/
Of course, I don't see reductionism as a problem, not in the long run. My issue with skeptics and atheists (they overlap but not completely) is that they do not reduce enough. They'll be more than happy to reduce to brain chemistry, to dopamine affecting patterns and right and wrong decided by the same brain region where smells are identified, but they do not go far enough. They do not reduce to the quantum level, which would explain quite a bit of spirituality, numinous experiences and perception of worlds and realities beyond our own.
Dr. Wu still thinks I see everything in a philosophical light, but philosophy (and theology) are simply reason divorced from experience. Science tries to tie experience to reason through observation and experiment, but I think it's handicapped by some rather silly axioms that are a matter of faith just as much as a belief in God.
Me, I believe in God, even if God does not exist. Existence is relative as it is. I'm not even sure that the reality we perceive and share everyday actually exists in an absolute sense of being the bedrock to which everything relates. I tend to think of this reality as a lower world in a hierarchy of being leading all the way up to God and all the way down to what, for all practical purposes would be hell, a self imposed and selfish place of separation from God and other sentient beings.
I guess I've been reading too much George MacDonald and mixing it with Michio Kaku. For me, fairy lore is real, as are demons, angels and ghosts. _________________ Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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Skeptical Site Admin

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Posts: 1659 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting stuff about smell and disbelief. I remember reading an article a few years back about the biochemical causes of the tunnel vision we sometimes experience when we fall in love (incapable of seeing another's faults or shortcomings - even when they are obvious to everyone else). Now if someone could come up with an antidote, it might save billions in divorce proceedings.
S _________________ "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson
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dr wu23

Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2254 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Somerville said:
Dr. Wu still thinks I see everything in a philosophical light, but philosophy (and theology) are simply reason divorced from experience. Science tries to tie experience to reason through observation and experiment, but I think it's handicapped by some rather silly axioms that are a matter of faith just as much as a belief in God.
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I'd like to hear which specific scientific 'axioms' you think are 'silly' and why you think they are 'faith' based.
I'd be willing to bet it will be based on your opinion and not a matter of any factual evidence.
 _________________ "Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 311 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
I'd like to hear which specific scientific 'axioms' you think are 'silly' and why you think they are 'faith' based.
I'd be willing to bet it will be based on your opinion and not a matter of any factual evidence.
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The axiom of science that everything reduces to the interaction of their parts is only partly valid. It explains physical systems, but it does not relate physical systems to their whole. IMHO, reductionism taken to the radical extreme that materialists insist upon should take us to the "spooky" level of quantum effects; which basically parallels what traditional beliefs, not just organized religion, see as the "supernatural".
You never get it, do you? You can't tell the difference between the way science operates and the atheism that so enthralls you right now. Atheists make many assumptions that are basically religious in nature. Yet, they claim a sort of twisted moral high ground in claiming that their use of reason is superior to religious faith. They don't use reason, if they did, they'd be agnostic. They operate upon an emotional dislike of organized religion, particularly monotheism.
Observing your posts over the years has led me to believe that you are emotionally reacting to what you perceive, and perhaps experience, monotheism to be. From a vaguely Eastern "Reality" that denies the importance of selves in favor of a whole that does not reduce, to a radical atheism where everything reduces to the self and it's rejection of any spiritual powers outside of humanity, you're grasping at straws.
But then again, I don't think you're constituted to believe and you don't have much choice if you operate on an emotional level. Calvin might have been wrong why some innately believe and others don't, but the observation is one that religious thinkers and philosophers should have made as far back as Biblical times and ancient Greece.
In my "neo-Calvinism" your inability to be rational and emotionally calm when presented with belief is physiologically a matter of the brain chemistry you were born with, but your lack of belief does not reduce to brain chemistry. It is ultimately a free choice on your part.
That's because there are "spooky" aspects to the human mind and imagination that simply do not stop at reducing to the levels where Sam Harris and company show comfort levels. That brings us back to the wholeness of "Reality" that you didn't quite grasp when you flirted with Eastern mysticism. IMHO, eastern mystics don't quite grasp it either, because they don't experience that wholeness as relating to us in a personal way.
Ultimately, it's a mystery why we have personal relationships to God in the West, when we believe, but Asians traditionally did not -- though they still had personal relationships to localized deities they considered part of the whole. Since I'm a Christian universalist, I think you're eventually get it once you're past this life and are no longer influenced by limited brain chemistry on this material level of reality.
God will be there for you always, in this world and in whatever we experience when the illusions of this world fall away. I'm looking forward to the eventual re-creation of physical reality, so it's no longer cut off from absolute Reality. That's what will happen when Christ becomes the savior of the world. Right now, he's just the savior of those who believe, though I believe he saves those who believe in God, even if they're not Christians. _________________ Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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dr wu23

Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2254 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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As I suspected, nothing concrete to say but more philosophical ramblings of a faith based believer.
Why don't you just admit you are scared ,want to believe , and hope to be saved by 'God'?
Emotional level..? You must either be joking or hopelessly confused. That's exactly what faith based belief is all about and where you are.
 _________________ "Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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