JANUARY 5, 2000, ST. CLAIR CO. ILLINOIS FLYING TRIANGLE CASE

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

Broggin
Wow, I'm not sure if I am more offended by your attitude or your remarks.
I am not going to apologize to you or anyone else for what I believe and why I believe it.
You haven't known me as long as some of the other posters who know where my interest and belief in ufology comes from and why.
Some of my responses were for them...not you or any of the newer posters.
Again....this message board isn't about who is wrong and who is right and who has the truth and who doesn't.
You think I should "admit error" but my opinions are just as valid as yours and I am not going to admit error when I perceived your replys as misinterpreting what I was trying to say.
I am not a dishonest person and that was very harsh of you to label me as such.
If you are trying to make me mad....it won't happen.
This message board isn't the most important thing in my life and I will not waste my energy arguing with you.
Again, I am sorry you feel the way you do and I have offered my hand in friendship.
Your rejection speaks volumnes about your character and if that makes you feel justified, then pat yourself on the back and consider yourself a winner.
Now, I am going to move on from here and let this thread get back on track.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

now looks like we have some disagreements here and thats ok,all we ask is that we show some respect for one another and to keep the dialogue cool,now if we are thru with this thread maybe its time for some new subjects,anyone?

Broggin · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:35 am Post subject:

Certainly Miss Carol. Would be nice however to see at least an attempt to explain how I twisted or misinterpreted anyones meaning or words here just to support my own views but apparently thats too much to ask:)

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

its the difference of opinions that tears this world apart,our inability to accept or even tolerate that which differs from our own,it takes both skill and patience to master that art,meanwhile I think you and Scam are going to grow to actually like each other...ducks.

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

Broggin
In the interest of resolving this, I will try to show you what I meant.
~
"On October 3, 1942, the space age began with the successful launch of the V-2 on its third attempt and the world would never be the same. Made as a weapon of war and not for science or adventure, the 46 foot alcohol and liquid oxygen V-2 had a velocity of 3500 mph and could carry a 1,650 pound warhead to a range of 200 to 250 miles. It is the ancestor of practically every rocket flown in the world today and, in September of 1944, was launched against England toward London but came too late to affect the outcome of the war."
~
Our space program BEFORE Roswell was aimed at rockets as weapons...not as vehicles for exploring space.
It is AFTER Roswell that our space program turned towards types of craft of a more scientific nature aimed at space exploration.
That is what I meant by before Roswell we were getting nowhere.
I never said we didn't HAVE some kind of space program.
It seems rather obvious, to me at least, that Roswell did indeed turn the tide of our space program if you look at it from a timeline sequence.
Would a crashed weather balloon have done that??
~
Does that clear things up for you?
Btw, Carol is right...I do like you....you are intelligent and the fact that you see things from a different perspective than I do...only makes for a good discussion, imo.
It seemed to me that you were trying to "twist" (perhaps the wrong word to have used) what I was saying to support YOUR views instead of understanding where I was going with MY views.
So, I will apologize for using the wrong word and I hope that you and I can continue to have friendly discussions.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

sigh,what we need is more Scams in the world.

Ataraxik · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject:

Um, there was this little thing called World War II that might have been the reason rocket research was directed towards military weapons rather than a space program. Remember World War II?
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

paulkimball · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject:

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

I meant to ask you,did you read the Day After Roswell and what did you think of Corso?r

Broggin · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/sputnik_origin.html

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

Paul
"I would add that even after Roswell the primary reason for rocket research was military, i.e. the development and improvement of ICBMs and other rockets with military applications. Space exploration was secondary, and even when it became a going concern it was linked directly to Cold War competition between the United States and the Soviet Union. I doubt that Roswell, whatever happened there, had anything to do with it."
~
But, that is my point..we had no space program PRIOR to Roswell that dealt with exploration of space or with designing black tri's or with anything similar to that. It was all about rockets for use as weapons and about satelites.
What I am asking you to consider is that AFTER Roswell there was a short period during which we were examining the remains of the Roswell crash.
Then we begin to see the focus of our space program turn to space exploration and designing some very sophisticated technology and aircraft which has progressed rather rapidly.
Yes, there was a war going on PRE Roswell and that was our focus at that time, but there was nothing before Roswell that had anything to do with exploring space ..with the exception of science fiction movies...neither the government nor the military. That could be one reason the Soviets and Germany were ahead of us at that time.
It just seems to me to be rather unusual that our space programs, our government and our military began to take a serious interest in spaceCRAFT after Roswell and not before. The level of technology and our space accomplishments in that department accelerated remarkable fast by comparison to PRE Roswell.
That is just MY observation and I see a definate difference.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

Broggin · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:47 am Post subject:

"but there was nothing before Roswell that had anything to do with exploring space....neither the government nor the military"

"As the allied armies sifted through the ashes of World War II, a mere look at the infamous German V-2 rocket invoked the idea of space flight, among both Soviet and American specialists. (3) Suddenly, there was a vehicle, which was just few engineering leaps away from testing Newton's 17th century theory. Indeed, it wouldn't take another 250 years to do it, instead, only 22 years would pass between the day the guns of World War II fell silent and the moment when an artificial moon closed the circle around Earth once described by Newton.

In 1945, the Bureau of Aeronautics of the US Navy considered a satellite, designed to deliver scientific hardware into space. (123) A year later, Major. Gen. C. E. LeMay of the US Air Force commissioned RAND Corporation to research the same subject."

"Unfortunately, from the standpoint of the scientist and the space flight enthusiast, concentration of attention on bombardment missiles neatly eliminated serious work on space research. At least four people (Tsiolkovski, Oberth, Goddard, and Dr. Walter Hohmann of Hamburg) had worked out perfectly valid data on exhaust velocities, mass ratios, and trajectories before 1930. The decade of the 30's was spent in carrying rocket technology to the point of practical application, and during the first half of the 40's, rocket technology was applied to the art of war. There were some few exceptions, concentrated largely in Germany, where the only propulsion systems with sufficiently high thrust to promise eventual space applications were being perfected. Walter Dornberger recalled several years after the fact that "our aim from the beginning was to reach infinite space, and for this we needed speeds hitherto undreamed of. Range and velocity were the great landmarks that guided our thoughts and actions." In another context he remarked, "With our big rocket motors and step rockets we could build space ships which would circle the earth like moons. Space stations . . . could be put into orbit around the earth. An expedition to the moon was a popular topic too." He also conceded, however, that most German scientists were not interested in anything beyond the atmosphere."

http://www.fas.org/spp/eprint/origins/part06.htm

The "focus" of our space program did not become one of research and exploration until the military applications criteria had been met at an adequate level. The funding needed to sustain both an exploratory and military program would mandate that both operate at severly restrained levels, resulting in very slow returns and minimal benefits. This was not an option in the 30's-40's, with war looming everywhere, our economy slacking. Space exploration was a theoretical concern with some earnest work done as far back as the mid 1800's with rocket design being a primary focus. Again, Goddard developed the liquid fueld rocket IN THE TWENTIES-THIRTIES. The United States military had scientists examining and putting together proposals for space flight and exploration towards the purpose of military explitation as early as the 30's.

Space exploration increased AFTER the United States had developed it's own missles capable of delivering nuclear weapons to their intended targets, primarily the USSR. The National Defense, critically after the advent of the nuclear weapon, was the single most important factor facing the nation. This is why the space programs first rockets were in fact military missles converted and modified for space launch experimentation. Once the weaponry was workable, it was then found that the nation that led the way in space technology, would also lead in war technology.

Your opinion is based on a serious lack of knowledge regarding the history of Space exploration, science, the nature of technological advancement, and a predisposition towards credulous beliefs.

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

Broggin
As a skeptic, you are right.
From a believers point of view, if you step back and see the larger picture, it looks like Roswell was a turning point in the technology of space exploration.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**Skeptical** · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject:

Scam, I think you are giving human space scientists way too little credit. There were no quantum leaps in our efforts to explore space - just a steady and traceable progress made by human beings. The Atlas rockets that took Mercury astronauts into space were not so different from V-2s. The Saturn-V was, in turn, not much different from the Atlas or Titan rockets that followed. Today's Space Shuttle and ESA's Ariane rockets are direct descendents as well.

Likewise, I think you will find that experimentation with exotic aircraft design was in full swing during the Second World War. The Germans fielded rocket-powered aircraft. They designed and build a number of highly unusual aircraft with even weirder ones on the drawing boards when the war ended.

Bottom line, I cannot think the alleged events at Roswell had much impact on anything. Hell, they didn't event have much impact on the UFO phenomenon until Bill Moore dredged up the incident in the late 1970s.

S
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

the question came up about that confusing black tri. Its supposed to be of alien origin. Then its supposed to be ours,our technology along with alien technology. When you think of it and if you read enough about the sightings of the Black Tri its said to move low and slow,and its nearly silent,unless your right under it when it isnt silent at all. What threw everyone off is the stories of its going from this low and slow mode to warp speed. If that wasnt true,if the part about its being able to go from drift mode to warp speed then we could easily accept that the Black Tri is ours. Putting out deliberate disinformation about its going into warp speed would immediately have the public think this is an alien craft. It isnt,its ours.