Abductions,(now dont turn away this is interesting)

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

I met Budd Hopkins at a MUFON conventon about 7 years ago. I have to say he was a very nice man and willing to stand around and speculate about ufos for almost 30 minutes with myself and a friend.
But...he isn't a psychologist, sociologist , a licensed trained hypnotist or any type of scientist. His material that he's obtained from 'abductees' should be looked at as folklore more than anything else imo. Shhh...don't tell Somerville I said that.
Wink

_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

oh come now Atar,both Clancy and McNally wanted nothing more than to slip in and clean out Macks desk once and for all.Who the heck was she to declare that the subject of abductions was dead,that she was "sick of aliens",isnt that too too bad.So having said that she should have then crept out of the office and left it to someone else.To think she actually believed by her declaring she was "sick of aliens" that that would be the end of it,its not.The nonsense these two came up with by way of explanation was positively shameful.The idea was to rid Harvard of any lasting talk of ufos or aliens.

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

carol,
You are misrepresenting what Mack said about his research and analysis of the inteviews he had with alleged abductees.
He never said that he thought his study group was being abducted by real aliens. He stated clearly in both of his books that he thought the answer was something other than space aliens and might lie in the realm of metaphysics or the spiritual as it was understood by his patients and society as a whole. He was interested in doing more research because he was unsure just exactly what was happening to these 'abductees'. He did not believe they were mentally unbalanced based on current psychiatric models but he also did not say they were being taken by grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli either.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

Yes Dr.Wu,I understand that,but had Mack convinced any of his clients that they were not being abducted? Ive said over and over again that these people go to the dr.Macks of the world because they have their own doubts as to whats happening to them.Ive questioned abdcutees that have come to these boards about their experience and if something other than an actual abduction could be happening.You know that youve seen me ask over and over again.Im not opposed to the idea of an alternative explanation not at all,what Im opposed to is poo pooing this idea that the people being put thru this are all nuts or glory seekers,I dont believe that for a minute.John Mack stuck his neck out big time,he earned the scorn of his so called friends for doing so.He died and Harvard jumped at the chance on erasing any memory of his work by having Clancy and McNally do there best to bury it.Those people that believe something horrible is happening to them lost a good friend in John Mack.Im not misrepresenting any of what Mack researched,I dont know anymore than the next person when it comes to so called abductions.

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

in regards to how long sleep paralysis lasts.

http://sleepeducation.com/Disorder.aspx?id=34

Ataraxik · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject:

Mack= hack

He constantly equivocated on what his beliefs and 'findings' were because he was constantly -and rightfully -under scrutiny for questionable ethics. He painted himself into a corner. If he endorsed alien abductions, as a supposedly science-based medical doctor he has to present the evidence for it and there is none, of course. If he states unequivocably that they were not being abducted he has to explain why he isn't treating them for what can only be a delusion. He made a mistake in declaring them to be without psychiatric problems because he then could not explain why he was treating them. His main supplier of abductees was Hopkins and after it was explained to Mack how unethical and deceitful Hopkins had been in practicing things he had zero training or experience in, Mack stuck with him anyway, compounding the unethical treatment. He constantly shifted his vague position in concert with all the justifiable criticism.

In the end, Mack was using alien abductions and abductees to further his larger agenda, that of his New Agey, metaphysical, uberconsciousness, the world is crying stuff. Many suggest he missed the limelight from his past fame as a Pulitzer winner for his biography on TE Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia). Bear in mind that Mack had zero accomplishments in his actual profession of psychiatry, found it only in the unrelated field of authoring a book, and found it again by using alien abductees, however nefariously. Publish or perish, however trashy.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

I don't agree with some of the negative comments made about Dr Mack but I do think he should have either done his 'abduction' work after he retired from Harvard or made it clear he was not connecting his ideas to Harvard or any of their depts.
I can understand Harvard's concerns but I also think a tenured Professor has the right to investigate an area that has been connected to psychology and psychiatry by others in the mainstream who think this is an issue of fantasy prone minds with some overlaying issues. His mistake was to think that his mainstreram peers would accept his work at face value since most MD's are reluctant to step outside the box on these 'paranormal' areas.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

Ataraxik · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject:

His work simply had (by his own assessment) nothing to do with psychiatry and nothing to do with Harvard, so...?

None here are unfamiliar with the abductees' claimed experiences, but just listen what Mack made of them! Bear in mind that prior to his abduction studies Mack had a long history of the 'Western philosophy and paradigms are bad and source of all Western problems/Eastern philosophy is good and the answer to the West's problems', a very common theme among would-be big thinkers in the West, that is, pay attention to how what Mack derived from abductees so very closely matched what he already believed prior to studying them. In his book Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens, which I have right here in my stubby little debunker hands, Mack says his work revealed common themes coming out from the alien abductee narrative, that whether real or spiritual, the basal message coming from abductees was that:

-our materialistic Western way of thinking has cut us off from the rest of the universe, a universe he believes contains 'intelligences' outside the material realm and beyond science.

-our Western philosophical prejudices in favor of Newtonian/Cartesian or materialist/dualist scientism are the root of all the evils that plague Western civilization.

-our inept Western ways have created destructive patterns of behavior, four basic patterns, which Mack claims he identified right from abductee 'messages' from what they consider the 'aliens': (1) corporate greed, (2) economic injustice, (3) national and racial hatreds, and (4) ecological destruction that threatens the very Earth itself.

These are just your basic Socialist platform points: (1) Corporations can't be trusted - the government ought to run things (2) there shouldn't be rich & poor, a la Communism, (3) cue "We Are THe World" music, (4) the greedy corporations and rampant consumerism are killing everything.

Never mind that all four are found in equal or greater measure in the East.

What I'm saying is that there is absolutely no way anyone could objectively derive all these philosophical beliefs from the set of alien abduction accounts of their reported experiences. It is exceedingly clear that Mack hears what he wants to hear, even within the strangeness and noise of the abduction narrative.

This is why I charge he was merely using them to push his pre-existent agenda, which is really just a standard West sucks/East is better, socialist platform of ideas. Since these ideas are hardly new and entirely banal, how then can he get them into the media? Attach them to something 'newsworthy' like alien abductions is how. Nobody paid Mack's socialistic message any heed until he attached it to alien abductions and claimed this was the 'message' coming through the alien abduction narrative. He lowered himself to the basic 1950s 'contactee' status, in other words, with the 'the aliens say we're destroing Earth! We must change!' message. Yawn.

Can any of you who are familiar with the alien abduction narratives honestly say that the above slate of socialist tenets Mack assigns to them ring true to you? Is that what you get out of it? Are those the things you hear?

Mack=hack=pimp
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

I read his first book and excerpts from the second , and I can't say I got the impression he was using the abduction phenomenon to push eastern socialistic politics or religion. I have not read or heard of any of his politcal viewpoints so it's news to me.
But that's certainly possible and if he was being dishonest and biased about what he was doing with the 'abductees' then that should be pointed out.
On the other hand your comments seem to indicate that you fall in the conservative or 'neo-con' camp and perhaps you are biased in your reading of Dr Mack. Please correct me if you are not a' neo-con ' but a liberal and a tree hugger.
Wink

_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

Ataraxik · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:16 am Post subject:

You suffer from a need to label people in black/white fashion. Be amazed that I am neither neo-con nor tree hugger.

I am not interpreting what Mack says through the lens of my own biases, I am repeating nearly verbatim what he himself says in the book you have not read, paraphrased from the book lying open on my desk as I typed the above post.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

and yet who would have thought that Carl Segan had such a book in him as Contact,I never tire of the movie Ill bet Ive seen it a dozen times.He told us all over and over again that there wasnt a scintilla of evidence regarding ufos and aliens yet that wonderful movie was actually about having faith. How could Mack or any man keep from including part of himself into their findings,they cant.They can say to the outside world as Sagan did about extrodinary claims requiring extrodinary proof but his inner self had the ability and need to share a book like Contact with the world.