UFO Paradigm Probe

**Skeptical** · Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: UFO Paradigm Probe

On several occasions, I have visited a site called UFO Paradigm Probe. This is an interesting but frustrating site. I think this guy has some important things to say - but he apparently has too much education for his own good. Now, I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I have to read his stuff several times to get the gist of what he is saying.

Maybe it's just me. Take a look and tell me what you think:

http://paradigmprobe.blogspot.com/2007/09/ghost-of-ourselves-within-saucer.html#links

I thought this particular post of his was interesting. If I am understanding him correctly, the uptake is that it is not UFOs that are important - but human reaction to the idea of UFOs that deserves study.

S
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson

Ataraxik · Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:

I can't top the sole Comment for this blog entry, left yesterday by 'Anonymous': "Gee, I can't wait until you start writing in English!"

He is a bad writer. He opens quotes but does not close them so you cannot tell who is saying what. He does not attribute quotes. He identifies a passage as coming from How The World Works, but there've been many papers, articles, and at least one book going by that title. He doesn't identify the author. If he meant the book by Alan Jones, it's one of those NWO conspiracy books. Furthermore (and assuming it is Jones' book he is quoting) he is quoting Jones on quantum physics of all things, a field in which Jones has zero expertise as evidenced by his apparent ignorance of quantum physics wherein the quote implies Jones believes quantum effects work at all levels. They do not. Quantum effects are only seen at the quantum level. This misappropriation and misinterpretation of quantum physics is the common practice of woo woo practioners such as Deepak Chopra and Uri Geller.

The blogger works very, very hard at appearing to be a brilliantly deep thinker by use of florid verbosity, and really needs a good editor. Badly.

Skeptical, you wrote his blog entry thesis much better than he did (or could) because you wrote it much clearer and much more succinctly:

"it is not UFOs that are important - but human reaction to the idea of UFOs that deserves study."

At least, I too think that's what he meant. If so, that is the PSH (Psychosocial Hypothesis) thesis in a nutshell, yet he never references it. (When/if googling, also use "Psychocultural Hypothesis" as some call it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosocial_Hypothesis

The New England skeptical Society has an article on the idea:
http://theness.com/articles.asp?id=46

'Human reaction to the idea of UFOs' (if that's what your blogger meant - who can say? lol) is an integral part of the PSH/PCH, in that existing feelings, beliefs, awareness, etc. of UFOs and aliens cannot help but affect any experience of them, whether it be a simple UFO sighting or an alien 'abduction'. The sense is that UFOs and aliens are so pervasive throughout virtually all aspects of western culture, that virtually no one has remained immune to or apart from it.

If the blog entry you linked is representative of this guy's other efforts, I believe I'd give him a pass. No reader ought to be made to work that hard only to receive that which is readily available in readable form elsewhere on the net.
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**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1351 Location: California

His opening paragraph is enough to make you stop reading.
I do not feel it is necessary to speak in terms that serve more to showcase your education or mastery of intricate wording to get across your point.
He used a lot of words to basically say nothing of importance, imo.
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**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

oh wait,let me read this and straighten out what he meant,LOL! Laughing

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

I enjoyed the article but I like speculations concerning the nature of reality and how things might be interconnected on a consciousness level. It doesn't help us 'solve' the ufo enigma but it's possible that some of the questions he asks might lead us in a direction that might hold some answers .
In other words are we dealing with a concrete phenomenon or something that is related to human perception and mind..?
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

Ataraxik · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject:

dr. wu: "I like speculations concerning the nature of reality and how things might be interconnected on a consciousness level."

If you haven't read them already, you might check these out:

Wings Of Illusion - John F. Schumaker
Bounded Choice: True Believers And Charismatic Cults - Janja Lalich
The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence - Carl Sagan
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

Bruce Duensing · Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 375

I just came upon this website and it's commentary on my blog and agree with the constructive comments regarding my writing style which can be obtuse. I am on the autistic spectrum and at times my writing follows convoluted loops and leaps. Aside from the style issues, I sincerely do not ascribe to any theory and have covered a variety of perspectives of many theories. I invite you to post your comments there. The psycho-social aspect of this phenomenon is certainly part of the aggregate dynamic of this phenomenon, however it is only one facet of a complex and reciprocal relationship. If you want a definitive point of view, Im afraid you will have to search elsewhere because I lack one. My latest post involves the possibility ihat the creation of a mythology is a potential aim behind this phenomenon.

Best Wishes
Bruce

**Skeptical** · Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:23 am Post subject:

Bruce - I am thrilled that you have registered as a poster here. Whatever challenges I have in understanding your writing does not take away from the fact that you are asking some questions about the phenomenon that seriously need asking. Welcome to the Department 47 community!

I was interested in your articles regarding the possible development of high-performance unconventional aircraft in Nazi Germany. I am hesitant to give the Third Reich much credit for anything but you have to admit, they had some aircraft designers who were really willing to push the envelope.

S
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

Just an additonal note but Dr Vallee has said many times in the past that our reactions and interpretations on a sociological level are just as important as the actual reality of the phenomenon. In other words, real or not, what impact has it had on our culture as far as religion, science, and general influences?
I highly recommend Messengers Of Deception and Dimensions by Vallee as well as Daimonic Reality by Harpur. They both address some of these social and cultural aspects as does Greg Little in Grand Illusions.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

Bruce Duensing · Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 375

Bruce Duensing · Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 375

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

From Bruce's blog piece:
"The What If proposition falls into play if one considers that perhaps there is an exchange, a dialog of information constantly intermeshed and reciprocal between the foundational clay of matter and our paradigms and conceptual models in the form of expectation...Is this why UFO's take so many forms which mirror our own conceptual models of the possible in the realm of the leading edge of them? Does this account for the variety of beings, the implausibly absurd, contradictory behavior as well as their lack of direct contact? Can we directly contact ghosts or dreams? And more importantly we should ask, what are they according to our best comprehension of what constitutes their interaction with us? Does this interaction mirror that of UFO's?"
------------------------------------------------

I've been espousing that possibility for years as has others like Harpur, Vallee, Keel, etc. It appeals to my mystical side.

Bruce,
Do you support the idea that Nazi Germany did create advanced aviation tech which we recoverd after the war and that some ufos are that technology being used by the US? If so what do you base this on?
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

Bruce Duensing · Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 375

The simple answer is that I don't know.However there is more than enough smoke to indicate a fire. I do think that there is a reasonable amount of evidence that there was alot of advanced experimentation in technical applications of both physics and\or electromagnetism some of which are known by their application after the war. It is reasonable to consider there is more we don't know about. We do know quite afew identities of both SS personel and the scientists assigned to this black series of projects. The CIA fudged the numbers under Paperclip so anything is possible when lying is a way of life. Alot of those Nazi directed folks who were involved at a intimate level either went into a self imposed or negotiated silence by abandoning their work and \or refusing to discuss it in the post WW2 Era of The Cold War. Many were eliminated by the SS prior to the end of hostilities. Some just vanished, one mathemetician in particular is a fascinating mystery. These two historical facts tend to reinforce there was certainly a strong possibility that there were and perhaps are, reasons behind these events that suggest a reinforcement of continued scecrecy after the war. Interestingly the vast majority of self same SS personel were neatly folded into the then OSS, later the CIA. It is more than interesting that a former head of the CIA and Navy was on the Board of Directors for a corporation conducting anti-gravity experiments under government contract. This unfortunately is a common scenario of cashing in as one hand washes the other. I am one of those who think it's more likely that the Navy is a major player in covert ufo intelligence gathering. I wish I had the resources to go to Russia as i think quite afew pieces of this puzzle are there. There is one lead I cannot discuss but it may turn out to be a dead end.
As you probably already know a great deal of material is still classified under an edict of national security. I think there is more than a reasonable possibility that one of the many designs of turbine driven craft resembling a ufo were tested at least once in the Southwest. if you want or need the details of this I can go back and look at my notes...it may take awhile.
Apparently, this appears not to have been furthered in development, outside of the smaller, unrelated variant of the Avrocar which shared the same concept of propulsion. One of the concepts that was invented by the Nazi Germans still used today is having many subcontractors build various subsystems of a final product for testing to insure compartmentalisation as well as highly sophisticated underground facilities. which I suspect this is a tact still being used at 51 and rumours of the same as extraterrestrial bases is a psych-ops red herring to keep prying parties at arms length. There is much more evidence that an earlier variant of the Horton Flying Wing( which led to the B2 ) was what was seen by Kenneth Arnold. It was certainly not saucer shaped. It follows a German outline perfectly. Of course we know that the CIA promoted extraterrestrial fevor to hide the U-2 etc. I think what most forget is that the development of radical aircraft from concept to a workable, finished version requires many test prototypes. Certainly, all of those folks flying out or being bused to 51 are not simply "pushing pencils". There was a great deal of material I have not published because it is nearly impossible to verify and the last thing any of us need is more unfounded grist for the rumour mill. I am still pursuing some of the whereabouts or at least information concerning some known participants who may have died of old age for all I know. The Kecksburg Incident is very interesting and I like everyone else is awaiting the sorting out of any material held at NASA. As I mentioned earlier, i think its a strong possibility that Kecksburg-Cash\Landrum and Samora Incidents are related in the testing of Nazi initiated advanced propulsion systems beyond the theoretical stage, but thats as far as I care to speculate.
Best Wishes
Bruce

**Skeptical** · Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:34 am Post subject:

I think it is pretty clear that the F-86 and MIG-15 of Korean War fame were both direct descendants of Nazi designs (Focke-Wulf I believe). It's also not hard to see how the YB-49 Flying Wing owes much to the work of the Horten brothers. But, while German designers were certainly forward thinkers, we should be extremely careful about ascribing to them powers of imagination or feats of engineering which they do not deserve.

We must require some pretty specific evidence before we should even consider that Third Reich designers progressed any further than jet propulsion. As far as I know, that evidence simply does not exist.

S
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson