Antony Flew gets Jefferson's religion

**Somerville Changeling** · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 303 Location: Central Texas

Antony Flew is now a Deist, which is a step in the right direction. Flew, as newly come to Deism, is acknowledging his Creator. So, he is no longer a fool who says in his heart that there is no God. That takes personal conviction and bravery, considering his background. I remember reading his arguments against Anselm's ontological argument back in philosophy class in 1978, that existence was not a predicate of being.

Now, it seems that a view very close to Intelligent Design has convinced him and he expressed interest in arguments in Gerald Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and Roy Abraham Varghese's "The Wonder of the World".

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1349 Location: California

Why are you so obsessed with Atheism?
Ooooops sorry ...didnt mean to turn this into a discussion about Atheism.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**Somerville Changeling** · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 303 Location: Central Texas

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1349 Location: California

Somer
I couldn't care less what other Atheists think, say or do.
I told you many times...I am not affiliated with any Atheists or Atheistic groups or organizations.
If Mr. Flew is happier as a believer...good for him.
I would never try to convert anyone TO Atheism or AWAY from Atheism.
All I do when I post is try to present what MY personal beliefs are and why I believe as I do.
I also ask questions....not as you accuse me of doing...to endorse Atheism...but to learn what motivates believers to think and act and believe as they do.
I am very secure, confident and happy with MY personal brand of Atheism...but somehow I do not sense that in believers....they just get way to upset and defensive when it is really not necessary, imo.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

Broggin · Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:26 am Post subject:

One of the favorite scenes in saucer-aliens-paranormal movies, is the "skeptic is forced to believe scene" which is almost a requirement it seems these days. This is what makes this story so appealing to those such as Yipsi, who for many years now have had to confront the fact that atheism and secularity is a growing trend in the world, and shows every sign of growing even more, and faster. Formerly Ideological governements are being tossed in favor of secular rule, attempts to force religion into fledgling secular law is overwehelmingly denied by populaces, and with each passing year, religion becomes more and more a subject of unease and suspicion and dersison rather than the source of comfort and direction it once held. Rationality has seen an upsurge, as groups, org,s, institutions, societys and the like are formed and swell their ranks in short order, while religion is arguably facing what couold well possibly be the threat of it's eventual shift to minority.

All the faith in the world will not change the face of Islam as it is finally revealiong itself for what it is. Nor can it repair the damage to Christianity as it's corruption comes to light again and again. The clergy, the very keepers of the word as it were, are stealing money from the flock, raping the children, and even in the case of the pope, denouncing and condemning to hell those who refuse to believe as they do.

If religion is in reality so abhorrent, which so many seem to be learning, that what is there for them?

How about reality? How about acceptance and appreciation of life for what it is? How about comfort in knowing that your destiny is your own, and that your actions have more bearing on you and those you love, than any mythical hope for an afterlife?

The religious know how tenuous their faith really is. Even Mother Theresa, that paragon of faithful servitude to her god, is revealed as a doubting frightend woman by her own writing, questioning her own belief, and finding herself so far immmersed into her callling, that she had no choice but to simply, "just believe".

It's a great comfort to those such as Yipsi when an avowed, atheist, skeptic, reductionist, humanist, bright, whatever term you feel most comfortable with finds him or herself unable to come to terms with the fact that this life really is all there is, that the world around really is what it seems, and decides to deliberately ignore their rationality in favor of faith.

It's, "Look, see!!! He's important and now he doesnt believe like you anymore, now he's one of us, cause wer''e right and he HAD to accept it!!!!".

It's intellectually decietful, and ignores a single basic fact. His belief changes nothing for no one, except himself.

Again, I have to note the extreme arrogance and hubris of Yipsil. Only HE knows the truth. Only HE can judge who is right and who is wrong. Only HIS beliefs are correct.

I wonder what an Imam would have to say about Yipsi' beliefs? Would he call Yipsi a fool? Want to bet on it?

**Somerville Changeling** · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 303 Location: Central Texas

Broggin · Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject:

First. Atheism is not a religion. You'd be better served giving up the tired dogma that's never worked since that argument was first tried. It only makes it that much more apparent just how desperate the user own position in belief is.

Atheism is the antithesis of religious belief. There is no cohesive doctrine, no theistic teaching, no governing body, nothing. There is only one thing required to be atheist, and that is to have no belief in a god or gods. It does'nt matter how you came to your views, it doesnt matter if you identify with a group, or are comfortable leaving it to others to make their position known and respected. Hardly the definition of a religion.

Atheism is not a position chosen. It is simply a lable. A term applied to those who have found the evidence for support of religious faith severly lacking, and instead accept that the evidence points to quite the opposite.

No one simply says, "I'm going to be an Atheist, because I don't believe in god". Rather, it's, "I must consider myself Atheist, because reason and evidence does not tell me there is a god or gods ".

You can try to make philosophical arguments to the contrary, but the simple fact that you have to misrepresent atheism, and apply YOUR OWN definitions which are wholly wrong, in other words straw man argumentation, pretty well ends your argument for you.

It never ceases to amaze me, how religious individuals almost to a person, avoid addressing the frailty and futility of blind faith, the simple fact that their religion demands they believe in spite of the lack of evidence, and instead try to denigrate others positions instead. As if that somehow magically strengthens their position of faith. Even were atheism wrong, which I have no doubt it isnt, it wouldn't make religious beliefs any more correct either. It's also interesting, in how those trying to paint atheism as religion, seem to think this would somehow weaken it's standing. Is the corrollary supposed to be that athesim is then ALSO wrong because they call it religion?

"Sorry, but I don't think your religion is growing."

I'd have to have a religion in the first place in order for it to grow.

"Atheists think that secularism is atheism in action, but it's actually narcissism in action. Most people today believe in God, but they believe in God badly, they have the vaguest notions that match Deism without the philosophical background. Few want to become atheists because atheism is even less compelling than the most fundamentalist sawdust church."

Again, you misrepresent the opposition, then proceed to try dismantling your own construct. No, although I cannot speak for all Atheists, although you seem to feel you can, I would say that they see Secularism exactly as it is. Law without religion, institution, without religion. Law for men, BY men.

Also, it is not Narcissism to crtically assess fact and accept the answers rationally arrived at. Man is not placing himself upon the top tier of reality by allowing his world to accomodate only that which actually exists. Rather it's really the opposite. By accepting that his world is complex and wonderous without need to invoke supernatural origins, he is acknowledging his small and diminutive place in it. His wonder and awe is properly reserved for the natural world, that with or without him, goes on.

I would argue in fact, that it is Narcissism, for a man to think, that HIS place in the world is so important, that a being of unfanthomable power and ability would even deign to give him more than passing thought. Much less center reality around him and demand his allegiance and subserviance.

"Why do you think that atheists have tried to write their own infidel filks like "Amazing Place"? They're trying to be socially competitive, when they are a century behind the times sociologically and bankrupt intellectually. They've had to rely upon angry advocates like Harris and Hutchins, who are just as much emotional windbags as the worst of the 80's televangelists."

You really REALLY should try a more honest approach. I am beginning to believe Ataraxik is correct, and that any discussion with you is moot, since you will argue both sides all by yourself, despite getting it wrong in the process.

Atheists are not trying to be socially competitive. They are not out to recruit or enlist. Well, maybe some are. Atheists realize that even though their number is experiencing an unprecedented increase, they still have a great deal to contend with if they want to enjoy the same tolerance and respect so hypocriticaly espoused by the religiously ferverous who still hold majority in this world. It is not enough to simply accept that you are atheist. The religious do not practice live and let live. They preach, they demand, and they punish disbelief. They oppress, censor, deride, and employ all other manner of maliciousness against those who refuse to believe as they do. As an Atheist, it is sensible in the extreme to not only stand up to such idiocy, but to let others of the same mind know it is okay to do so.

The problem for the religious is, theirs is a position of empty promise. Hardship without reward, and THAT if anything, is not compelling. How can you combat a rise in rationality, a willingness to question and refuse, if the best you can offer is, "God just is, and if you don't believe us, we'll treat you like garbage"? The religious realize, that faith just isnt enough anymore, and that with the growth of knowledge, comes understanding. And the more that is understood, the less that blind faith is even considered.

The rise in Atheism and secular thought is not due to any promotion. It is not because some are out there defending their postion loudly and publicly, and a few are finding it favorable compared to religion. The increase is due to the advancement of knowledge, the increase in mans awareness of just how the universe works. As we look behind more and more curtains, we find there are no gods hiding there, only mysteries that one by one give up their secrets to our curiosity. Whether the religious like it or not, Faith is dependent upon ignorance, whether innocent or deliberate. Remove ignorance, and you have little to hide behind.

"I've also noticed that atheism is an angry young man's religious belief system. It allows people who want to believe that "greed is good" to proceed with their careers with a smattering of intellectual views that merely support their selfishness."

Oh for crying out loud! Not the arguement that without religion there is no morality. Please, you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty? Explain to me the Priest and Pastors driving around in new Lincolns and Caddy's while their flock rides the bus, and gives up their bread money for their plates.

Explain to me the rampant corruption on the Churches, where the clergy is taking the money and spending it on houses and vacations, jewlery and trips. The corruption where sin is reviled as evil, then behind closed doors the children are sodomized and threatend with hell if they tell.

Atheism does not have any such decietful garbage. The great thing, with atheism, a man accepts he is only a man, his actions are his own. He has a much stronger and forcefull source for his morality. The only true source. His own natural senses of compassion, empathy, conscience, trust, respect. An atheist understands and accepts that as a man, HE is responsible for his actions. He is responsible for his strength of character, or lack thereof. He does not need to hide behind religious platitude, or hand off responsibility to a lapse in faith. He understands that what sets him apart from the animals, is not a favored position in some unknowable deities grace, but a rationality, a free will, allowing him to recognize and to choose between right and wrong.

I defy you to give 10 examples of Atheist immorality. In exchange I will give you 40 examples of religious immorality.

The truth is, if you want to find evil, if you want to find deciet and greed, just look for religion and you will have found it.

Religion is the number one source of evil and horror in this world, and has been for centuries.

"There's no arrogance, I was quoting one of the major literary sources for the Western world when I said the fool says in his heart there is no God. The Bible recognizes that the only alternative to trust in God is not disbelief in God, but emotional rejection of God."

Oh, there is quite a bit of arrogance. As in when you deride critically arrived at positions, then proclaim the only way to know the truth is to believe as you believe. You do it clearly, and often.

Such as when you ridicule skeptical consideration of Ufological claims, then declare yourself a religious folklorist, then call those perfoming said skeptical scrutiny fools who should believe in religious folklore if they ever want to get any answers.

You are free to believe what the bible tells you, even if it is wrong. There is no emotional drive in the failure to find god on a rational basis. Just look at the implication in your own words. "Only a fool does not believe in god". Arrogance, condescension.

"Why do you atheists always say that whichever religious person you respond to thinks that only "THEY" knows the truth? That's a poor argument. I don't have a solipsist view that all truth is personal and that there are no absolutes. That's common to atheism, but I'd be a fool to think that only I understand the truth. I'm not a fool."

Again, not speaking for all Atheists. But. I will say that I am referring only to you, not all folks mired in faith. I am referring to your posts deriding any objection to your arguments and position. I am referring to your numerous attempts to portray your own beliefs and position as the only true and correct ones.

"What would an imam think? Well, he'd consider me wrong, and he'd tax me if he could, but he'd let me live with an identifying piece of clothing. You, he'd murder without giving you the option of recanting, like the Inquisition actually allowed. All the bright dismissal of God in Europe has turned that continent into Eurabia, and as Turkish immigrants chanted to secular Germans at one protest, "we will outbirth you".

I don't think I have seen anyone so wrong, so often, in quite some time.

First, for a Muslim, there is only Islam, then there is infidel, blasphemer, unbeliever. He would indeed consider you a fool, and you'd be every bit as subject to his tender mercies as anyone. Witness the murder and persecution of the Christians and Jews througout the middle east. Islam allows for the consideration of letting an infidel live, but ONLY if he can be subjugated, enslaved, and maybe later converted. Thats the whole point of leaving such an option. Make life without Islam such hell, they convert.

Europe is not experiencing an upsurge in Islamic population because Atheism has overshadowed Christianity or any other non Islamic faith. Thats one of the more ridiculous things you've said so far. In fact, the problem lies with the hypocritical religious dogma thats been ingrained into the populace for centuries. It's led to the hairbrained idea that tolerance and acceptance of religion are a must. Islam has no such constraints, and enthusiasticaly encourages intolerance of all religions save Islam, and violence to force conversion or subjugation.

"Atheism is a dead religion tied to the emotions of selfishness. It will destroy the West more quickly than the most evolution rejecting Bible church."

I was wrong, this is even more ridiculous.

Atheism as I noted, is tied to the increase of knowledge. Knowledge gained because religion was put into a backseat, as rationality proved itself much better able to improve mans lot in life. This is what has led us out of the dark ages. This is what has given the west it's freedoms and strength. Religion would have had us still cowering in fear of witches, and praying for god to heal our sicknesses. It would have us dirty and ignorant, never to reach any potential, or know more than whats written in a book of fantasy.

I'm about done with this, save a few small bit's too glaring to pass by.

"The priest sex scandal is real, I won't deny it and I think Catholics should go back to married priests, like before the year 1000 or so when celibacy was instituted as a rule and not just an ideal"

Interesting. So, are you saying, that they are just poor sex starved guys, and the children just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Not their fault, because they aren't allowed to have a woman?

Are you saying, that their religion, their GOD, is not enough to combat even the simplest most base of human desires?

Are you saying it's only the Catholics?

Am I supposed to then buy into your earlier argument, that Atheism is for the greedy and selfish, the immoral, and religion is the source of morality, when it cannot even curb it's own representatives sick desires?

It's one thing to miss the mark. It's one thing to vote for a political candidate even if he has a some shady dealings. The political system is not intended as the source and answer to all mans questions, or intended as his guide to living a moral life.

It's quite another to deny your own rationality, to place your trust and belief, in a system that cannot even support it's own argument. Great golloping gophers man, the corruption in the church can be traced all the way to the very top!

Not a very good argument for the morality of religion thats for certain.

"My destiny is my own in cooperation with God."

Then you deny free will and destiny.

"What I find in modern physics supports traditional religion much more than it does your atheism."

There is nothing in modern physics which indicates a creator is involved.

Broggin · Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject:

"Either way, Flew has yet to explain in any coherent way what he believes or why. Unfortunately, in his BBC interview, when Bakewell asked Flew what I had been trying to get him to answer before March 2005 myself, "So what is your final evidence? What is the, what was the clincher for you, Professor Flew?" Flew gives no answer at all, but rambles on about how his newfound deism is no big deal and just an opinion, a conclusion that is "pretty thin." But what he bases this "pretty thin" conclusion on he still fails to say. Later in that same interview he says "I haven't really formulated what I do believe," but it sounds as if he hasn't even formulated why he believes. And I've heard nothing to suggest anything has changed this past year."

Antony Flew Considers God...Sort Of
http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=369

"Flew's one and only piece of relevant evidence for accepting a deistic god was the apparent improbability of a naturalistic origin for life (Carrier 2004). Flew, by his own admission, had not kept up with the relevant science and was mistaught by Gerald Schroeder, a physicist and Jewish theologian (e.g., Schroeder 2001). He later conceded, "I now realize that I have made a fool of myself by believing that there were no presentable theories of the development of inanimate matter up to the first living creature capable of reproduction" (Carrier 2005). Thus Flew's conversion is, by Flew's own admission, baseless"

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA115_1.html

**TheScamDetective** · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 1349 Location: California

Very good posts, Broggin.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2245 Location: Indiana

I've never heard of Flew and frankly it seems somewhat irrelevant in the scheme of things that he found 'religion' or whatever he believes these days.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

Ataraxik · Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:

Flew is hardly the first atheist to revisit the question in his very old age (he's an 84 year old minister's son).
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

Broggin · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject:

Have to admit, I was hoping to go more in depth regarding the idea that without religion there is no morality.

Ataraxik · Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject:

Atheists and religious believers and morality.

I wonder which group has more members in prisons per capita. Actually, I know. It isn't atheists. Wink

I wonder which group has the higher divorce rate. Actually, I know. It isn't atheists. Wink

I also marvel at the implications of the idea of religion providing moral direction, that if religious believers were to lose belief, they'd lose all moral compass with it and go off robbing, raping, and pillaging. I wonder if atheists and agnostics without religious moral direction would have that lack revealed in crime statistics. Actually, I know. It isn't. Wink

So, the evidence is clear: atheists are immoral, but really good at getting away with it.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

Broggin · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject:

Ssssshhh! Next you'll be telling em about the secret handhsake!

**Doh!**