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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2245
Location: Indiana
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 Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yipsl,
I feel you place far far too much emphasis on folklore and trad beliefs to support your personal belief in trad religion.
As I said in the other thread I honestly think we all have it wrong to a large degree particularly those who use old monotheistic models to explain the nature of 'What Is'.
I know you claim to walk a slightly different path than most Christians, but you still profess to believe in some manner of redemption, judgement, and being saved by Jesus. To me this is just clinging to old models based on ancient belief systems that really never had any validity to begin with.
OTR said in another thread somewhere that his idea of 'God' was much larger and more expansive than the trad beliefs and i have to agree that if 'God' exists in some way it will probably be nothing like what people think as it relates to after lives and all the other trad dogma that people attach to it.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Yipsl
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
Yipsl,
I feel you place far far too much emphasis on folklore and trad beliefs to support your personal belief in trad religion. |
I've always been a traditionalist. The best traditions stand the test of time. Folklore proves much to me, and even my Fortean experiences and studies proves to me that traditional Christianity has it largely right, though only God knows the absolutes.
| dr wu23 wrote: |
As I said in the other thread I honestly think we all have it wrong to a large degree particularly those who use old monotheistic models to explain the nature of 'What Is'.
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I still see, in you and in many other detractors of Biblical religion, a sort of Animal Farmish idea that all religions are equal but some are more equal than others; with Judaism and Christianity in a secretly whispered 'not equal at all' category. In fact, the oldest religion is basically akin to what Jews call the Noachide faith, it's simple trust in a creator behind the spirits of nature and the stars in the sky and the moral teachings He gave. Keep in mind that just because it's old does not mean it's wrong, and all the newness you bring to the table to justify your life does not mean you're on to something profound.
I believe the world's attack on Christianity, while partly due to American evangelical Christianity's deception by the Republican party, is largely due to hatred of a God that makes any demands on the human will. I can say that God is our Father and the mother who will not abandon us, but few here want to listen. Perhaps it's time to say that, just as human parents will let their adult children make disastrous mistakes when they won't listen to advice; so too does God allows us our wills. If we don't want to be in His presence, then we won't be there in the end.
As a Christian universalist, I hope that hades is not eternal, that Jesus can reach people in the outer darkness, in hades, in hell. I still long for the Jewish idea that Gehenna lasts for only a year with most being purged of sin and allowed to enter Gan Eden, and the few being annihilated, but Biblical evidence does seem to imply hell lasting as long as Heaven. Since I've encountered Christian views that today's heaven is temporary and that there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, then perhaps there won't be a new hell and even the grumble that was once a person's ego will be no more.
Jesus is a stumbling block to you. IMHO, you are being deceived about "What Is". I even think that if Christianity is right and you end up alone in the outer darkness, what people traditionally call hades or hell, that you'll mistake it for nirvana, at first anyways. Where we go in our lives is our choice, and people have the right in this life to make the wrong choices.
Perhaps we can turn this discussion into exactly how wrong you are in your beliefs. You seem to say we don't know anything but your "What Is" is still closer to knowing something. I think the one true Trickster in the cosmos has taken you for a ride and you're set up as moon food in the folklore sense. After all, what hasatan wants more than anything else is to make us share his self chosen situation and judgment.
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2245
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps we can turn this discussion into exactly how wrong you are in your beliefs. You seem to say we don't know anything but your "What Is" is still closer to knowing something. I think the one true Trickster in the cosmos has taken you for a ride and you're set up as moon food in the folklore sense. After all, what hasatan wants more than anything else is to make us share his self chosen situation and judgment |
Yipsl,
You used to be a self -righteous Jew and now you are a self-righteous arrogant Christian with a boat load of nonsense.
Definitely not an improvement. If you feel the need to preach...please do it on a Christian board and not here.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Yipsl
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Perhaps we can turn this discussion into exactly how wrong you are in your beliefs. You seem to say we don't know anything but your "What Is" is still closer to knowing something. I think the one true Trickster in the cosmos has taken you for a ride and you're set up as moon food in the folklore sense. After all, what hasatan wants more than anything else is to make us share his self chosen situation and judgment |
Yipsl,
You used to be a self -righteous Jew and now you are a self-righteous arrogant Christian with a boat load of nonsense.
Definitely not an improvement. If you feel the need to preach...please do it on a Christian board and not here.
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No winks Dr. Wu. You simply come across as hating Biblical religion, and you've told me yourself how you hate to be disagreed with. Even if you disagree with Biblical theologies, you should note that Biblical folklore, as well as the folklore of other world religions, describes a malevolent being out to destroy humanity spiritually, if not feed off us literally.
Scam and I can have interesting discussions and I respect her opinion. I take folklore seriously. It led me to Christianity, but I recognize it does not work for everyone. I guess every religious view is good on the fringe except Biblical religion, regardless of which Biblical religion.
If I were into tulpas and auras and all other Fortean elements of Asian religion, then I'd be welcome. I could not only talk about tulpas but a pathless path and Reality. That would be expressing a religious point of view, but you'd welcome that and sign posts back to me with namaste.
You're the last person I'd expect to agree with me on Biblical religion's validity. I once felt that all I should hope for is that Biblical religion gets the same respect on the fringe as any other religion on the face of this earth. Now, I have a suspicion why it gets no respect.
Folklore happens, what I find strange is how people interpret the overwhelming spiritually negative aspects of the preternatural as positive aspects of a Trickster, of benign aliens, of physical cryptids explainable by reductionism and as spiritually healthy paths.
Though not all paranormal phenomena is evil or deceptive, much of it is and I'd rather think that people should be cautious, especially when they are too quick to ditch the faith of their fathers. What really is going on with that spiritually? Is it a jump in spiritual evolution, or is it something else again?
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2245
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yipsl,
I don't 'hate' Biblical religion nor do I 'hate' being disagreed with.
I honestly don't see how anyone can intellectually defend a traditional Biblical faith based position in the light of modern science and modern knowledge in general....but I feel my comments above were unfair to you and for that I apologize. You have always been fair minded for the most part and tolerant of others and I do respect your personal search. I just think it is not what really is and that we should seek truth beyond all known definitions.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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OldTimeradio
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
| I honestly don't see how anyone can intellectually defend a traditional Biblical faith based position in the light of modern science and modern knowledge in general.... |
There's a university in my city filled with cutting-edge Jesuit microbiologists and nuclear physicists who don't have problems with it.
Now they may be just dead wrong, of course, but they're NOT ignorant of "the light of modern science and modern knowledge," having themselves contributed their share of that light.
_________________
Sincerely,
OldTimeRadio
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 303
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
Yipsl,
I don't 'hate' Biblical religion nor do I 'hate' being disagreed with.
I honestly don't see how anyone can intellectually defend a traditional Biblical faith based position in the light of modern science and modern knowledge in general....but I feel my comments above were unfair to you and for that I apologize. You have always been fair minded for the most part and tolerant of others and I do respect your personal search. I just think it is not what really is and that we should seek truth beyond all known definitions. |
Note, my name change. The last one was based on a mistranslation from the Yiddish but was actually a pun related to the anti-communist socialist group that the present neo-cons were once members of back around the 30's and 40's. There's misinformation on the net that it actually meant squirrel, which is why I chose it. If I'd realized years ago that it wasn't the Yiddish for squirrel, then I would not have chosen it.
This is the one I'll stick with until I die somewhere around age 90 after making a reasonable post supporting both Biblical spirituality and the EDH.  Since it's actually based on family history and an ironic take on my personal history as well, it fits. Besides, it matches my wife's use of redwoodtreesprite or rtssprite on photography, graphics, modding and game related boards. We both have "otherworldly" net names now that relates to personal histories.
I was not trying to preach, but to provide a caution. I do not worry about your soul because I'm a Christian universalist. Since we both accept aspects of the trickster motif in explaining the universe, I would think that anyone would at least consider that the Christian UFO belief of an End Times conspiracy is as valid as the classic Trickster melded to NWO conspiracies. Since you've expressed support for both the Trickster and interest in NWO, I'd think that you'd not openly reject the possibility, even if you gave it a lower probability than your own.
I sometimes have been harsh about your worldviews, but mainly because you don't define them. Writing "Reality" and "What Is" might mean something to a follower of Krisnamurti, and I acknowledge you don't consider yourself a follower, but just influenced by him, but without definitions, it just sounds guruish in it's pretentions. Yes, I've read Alan Watts years ago and I've read about zen koans and even contemplated a few, but I work from a tradition that is neither postmodern like Bennet nor cryptic like Zen, and definitions matter.
I still hold by my earliest assertions that anyone who attempts to create a pathless path simply creates a new path and if they don't have their axioms defined, then they simply are in danger of meandering. I do not think that a Westerner can truly think like an Easterner, and Asians raised in our materialistic culture lose the ability to think like their ancestors. Is that a loss or a gain? If one thinks that the philosophy of self and successful materialism of the West is better, it might be a gain, if one prefers Asian philosophies that attempt to deny the self, and doesn't mind the horrid conditions that the lower castes in India live under, then it might seem a loss.
IMHO, China, Korea and Japan lost out when they went Buddhist, I don't know enough about earlier religious views in Thailand, Burma or Vietnam, but if they were like Hinduism with castes and karma, then they were the sort of spirituality that Buddhism was meant to defeat. Overall, I see the worth of each individual as a child of God made in God's image to be a greater truth even if God turned out to be a myth.
If one thinks that both East and West have issues, the West with materialism and the East with a too diffuse spirituality, then I won't disagree. No religion is perfect because no human being is perfect, but we have to accept that we understand reality as it applies to us, otherwise both our common sense and our science is worthless. I might believe that physics is finally reaching the heights once reserved to mysticism, but without the sense of self worth and balanced ego found in the West, there would be no new insights, no new understandings and no devotees of Eastern thought writing books like the Tao of physics. I've also been a bit miffed that Asian religious devotees put Jesus in the category of a lesser bodhisattva. That, to me, is as bad as the fundamentalist claiming all non-Biblical religions are the work of the devil. I think that both extremes need to read the appendix to C.S. Lewis' The Abolition of Man.
Otherwise, let's not get on each other's nerves. We've known each other on the net since the Parascope days and that's something like 12 years or so? We can agree to disagree and we should always try to be honest and keep the other guy honest too.
_________________
Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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