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Broggin
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 128
Location: Way down sooouuuth, a dixie
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 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: Something bad must have happend? |
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Jehova's witnesses. You've all heard of em. Maybe you've seen em at your door. Flowery dresses and tailored suits standing in 90+ degree heat on your doorstep, just chomping at the bit to get the word to you the second you open your door.
We've one in particular here, that wont go away, or should I say wouldn't? Hehe.
She first appeared during our yard sale, claiming interest in several pieces of furniture that she just couldnt make a decision upon yet. She hung around, and of course managed to get my other half into a conversation about religion. What does she believe, is she christian, catholic, has she thought about the JW"S, maybe they could talk sometime etc etc. So, she comes back two days later, asks to see my other half claiming she'd like to see the furniture again.
I am informed later, that the woman is pressuring her about switching to JW"s.
So, the lines are drawn now. I am atheist, my baby is Christian, and we're just dandy with it all thank you.
I begin answering the door, and running interference. No, she's in the shower. No, she's out right now. No, she's at that school. Finally, they take a chance and ask me if I'd be interested in talking with them. Muwahahaha.....
"Bout what?" says I.
"Well, about the lord and his plans for you" says they.
"Really?, I kinda got my own plans for me" says I.
"Do you know the lord, do you pray?" says they.
"Nope, I'm an atheist, and not interested in making invisible friends in the sky" says I.
Here is where the woman gets a look of utmost concern on her face, and speaking to me as if I am a child who just broke his arm says...
"Ooooohhh, did something bad happen to you in life?"
That tore it for me.
I can deal with the self delusions, brainwashing, and personal neediness these jokers exude, but to imply that I refuse religious belief out of spite, or that I come by my rationalist position because I must be somehow damaged? Lady, you just went to the wrong place.
Nope, I tell her. I've had WONDERFUL things happen in my life. And all without praying to a non existent entity for his or her generosity in making em happen. I've come by my atheism as a result of dumping my fears instead of clutching a security blanket, and accepting the world as it is, and you would do well to do the same. Thank you, and now good day.
And they wonder why atheists have little problem with getting militant 
I made a large "No Soliciting" sign, and placed it at the front door.
A new set of JW"S just visited this afternoon. I had to tell them, "See that sign? It means I am not buying anything and do not want you on on my doorstep", then shut the door.
In this day of frivolous lawsuits, and minority special insterests, I am almost tempted to file a complaint claiming I am offended by the JW's beliefs and that they are infringing on mine.
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Broggin
I will share with you how I get them to leave me alone.
I used to have them show up on my doorstep all the time too. One day when I was studying Spiritualism and was reading about seances, my doorbell rings and it is a JW lady.
She gave her little short speel and asked if I had time to talk with her.
I told her....gee no, I am right in the middle of a seance.
Her eyes got as big as dinner plates and she says to me....you mean you talk to dead people????
I said....oh sure...all the time!!
Well, never have I seen anyone fly off my porch like she did!!
After that day I never had another one show up.
I think they had me marked as a "do not disturb" house!!!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Yipsl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Something bad must have happend? |
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| Broggin wrote: |
"Ooooohhh, did something bad happen to you in life?"
That tore it for me.
...but to imply that I refuse religious belief out of spite, or that I come by my rationalist position because I must be somehow damaged? Lady, you just went to the wrong place. |
So, the argument works both ways. People come to faith damaged and they come to atheism damaged. They come to faith without damage and they come to atheism without damage. I can laugh at infidel atheists writing their own hymns using Christian ones they way Christians used drinking song tunes for their hymns centuries ago, but those very same infidels quote atheist e-mails that relate the damage religion allegedly caused them.
So, it works both ways and the same tactics are used by missionaries going door to door as well as by atheists going message board to message board. It's all based upon something wrong and needy in the other person's life.
| Broggin wrote: |
Nope, I tell her. I've had WONDERFUL things happen in my life. And all without praying to a non existent entity for his or her generosity in making em happen. I've come by my atheism as a result of dumping my fears instead of clutching a security blanket, and accepting the world as it is, and you would do well to do the same. Thank you, and now good day.
|
You know Broggin, I had many atheists tell me that I was only religious because I had bad things happen to me. My childhood wasn't perfect, though it wasn't as bad as others I've seen. Because of it, I gained a great appreciation of God's promise in Isaiah 49:15.
Yet, that was not why I believed. I believed because of personal experience. I sensed God in my life. Not an invisible god up in the sky, not the mockery that atheists love to trot out and that might very well be based upon artistic images like the Sistine Chapel, but which is not based on God as experienced by Jewish and Christian believers.
I accept the world as it is too. Considering how differently we see it, I'm very much inclined to accept a modified Calvinism; one that doesn't rely upon TULIP but acknowledges that some are destined to believe and others destined to mock belief as a security blanket wherever they see it. In a sense, that mockery is a security blanket against the Old Time fundamentalism that thumped Bibles on podiums while warning about the wages of sin being death and the reward of the sinner being Hell.
If one can convince oneself that sin is only against a straw man God, and not against other people, and that Hell is only a place for seedy lounge lizard sinners beset by trident carrying cartoon devils, then that's a great security blanket when a moment of God consciousness and self assessment arrives. No one, not even the atheist raised by atheists to the tune of that trendy "Amazing Place" avoids moments when they know that God is not a straw man in the sky and that both Heaven and Hell are real, if imperfectly described places beyond this world; possibly in another part of the multiverse.
Some atheists rebel against religious upbringing, others are raised as atheists. Let me quote those silly infidels again. (Why they want to use the Western form of a Moslem religious term is beyond me -- I guess it's more muscular than freethinker and, though heretic might fit better, as they always seem to be rebelling against Christianity and not Buddhism or Hinduism, they really do want to hide the fact that they are a religious belief system based on animosity towards religion):
| Quote: |
An atheist friend of mine was worried that his children would turn out to be religious. He suggested -- I am not sure how seriously -- that the way to assure their ultimate acceptance of atheism was to subject them to strict religious training. He maintained that this training would cause his children to become atheists. My friend surely had a point. We all know nonbelievers who as children rebelled against their strict religious upbringings. Unfortunately, it does not always or even usually turn out that way. In any case, atheists come to their atheism in many different ways and the stories of conversions to atheism are manifold. |
I sympathize with you. Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert other Christians more than the nonbelievers. They are a sect bent on thinking they have the sole truth of the world as it is; much like those pesky infidels, by the way. Me, I'm more accepting of variations in Biblical belief. It's the fruits of what a person does, not the theologies or philosophies they study. It's our relationship with Christ, not our Christologies that make us Christians.
For the most part, I'm what Protestants might call an Arminian, what Catholics might call a semi-Pelagian, but which I simply call being a Jewish Christian influenced by traditional Jewish universalism as much as by George MacDonald's Christian universalism and C.S. Lewis' modified universalism; note that all acknowledge Gehenna, Hades, Hell, Tartarus as actual places, but differ as to how one arrives there, for how long and what change of heart could lead to being released, if any change is possible.
Me, I pray with Bruriah that sins cease, not sinners. If they repent, then they will no longer be sinners. At any rate, my personal belief is that Jesus is the Savior of the world, but especially of those who believe. God deals with each of us where we are, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists and I cannot see the truth in the Apostle's "no excuse" text without also knowing that God reaches everyone in their lives and it's our free will choice to accept or reject; even if we are predestined to accept easily or to reject easily.
| Broggin wrote: |
And they wonder why atheists have little problem with getting militant |
I don't wonder, it's human nature to be a Fanatic when one truly believes he knows "What Is" or sees "Reality" in ways that the blind simply do not. Atheists are not immune from fanaticism anymore than a religious believer. We are all humans, after all.
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Yipsl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Broggin wrote: |
"Ooooohhh, did something bad happen to you in life?"
That tore it for me.
...but to imply that I refuse religious belief out of spite, or that I come by my rationalist position because I must be somehow damaged? Lady, you just went to the wrong place. |
So, the argument works both ways. People come to faith damaged and they come to atheism damaged. They come to faith without damage and they come to atheism without damage. I can laugh at infidel atheists writing their own hymns using Christian ones they way Christians used drinking song tunes for their hymns centuries ago, but those very same infidels quote atheist e-mails that relate the damage religion allegedly caused them.
So, it works both ways and the same tactics are used by missionaries going door to door as well as by atheists going message board to message board. It's all based upon something wrong and needy in the other person's life.
| Broggin wrote: |
Nope, I tell her. I've had WONDERFUL things happen in my life. And all without praying to a non existent entity for his or her generosity in making em happen. I've come by my atheism as a result of dumping my fears instead of clutching a security blanket, and accepting the world as it is, and you would do well to do the same. Thank you, and now good day.
|
You know Broggin, I had many atheists tell me that I was only religious because I had bad things happen to me. My childhood wasn't perfect, though it wasn't as bad as others I've seen. Because of it, I gained a great appreciation of God's promise in Isaiah 49:15.
Yet, that was not why I believed. I believed because of personal experience. I sensed God in my life. Not an invisible god up in the sky, not the mockery that atheists love to trot out and that might very well be based upon artistic images like the Sistine Chapel, but which is not based on God as experienced by Jewish and Christian believers.
I accept the world as it is too. Considering how differently we see it, I'm very much inclined to accept a modified Calvinism; one that doesn't rely upon TULIP but acknowledges that some are destined to believe and others destined to mock belief as a security blanket wherever they see it. In a sense, that mockery is a security blanket against the Old Time fundamentalism that thumped Bibles on podiums while warning about the wages of sin being death and the reward of the sinner being Hell.
If one can convince oneself that sin is only against a straw man God, and not against other people, and that Hell is only a place for seedy lounge lizard sinners beset by trident carrying cartoon devils, then that's a great security blanket when a moment of God consciousness and self assessment arrives. No one, not even the atheist raised by atheists to the tune of that trendy "Amazing Place" avoids moments when they know that God is not a straw man in the sky and that both Heaven and Hell are real, if imperfectly described places beyond this world; possibly in another part of the multiverse.
Some atheists rebel against religious upbringing, others are raised as atheists. Let me quote those silly infidels again. (Why they want to use the Western form of a Moslem religious term is beyond me -- I guess it's more muscular than freethinker and, though heretic might fit better, as they always seem to be rebelling against Christianity and not Buddhism or Hinduism, they really do want to hide the fact that they are a religious belief system based on animosity towards religion):
| Quote: |
An atheist friend of mine was worried that his children would turn out to be religious. He suggested -- I am not sure how seriously -- that the way to assure their ultimate acceptance of atheism was to subject them to strict religious training. He maintained that this training would cause his children to become atheists. My friend surely had a point. We all know nonbelievers who as children rebelled against their strict religious upbringings. Unfortunately, it does not always or even usually turn out that way. In any case, atheists come to their atheism in many different ways and the stories of conversions to atheism are manifold. |
I sympathize with you. Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert other Christians more than the nonbelievers. They are a sect bent on thinking they have the sole truth of the world as it is; much like those pesky infidels, by the way. Me, I'm more accepting of variations in Biblical belief. It's the fruits of what a person does, not the theologies or philosophies they study. It's our relationship with Christ, not our Christologies that make us Christians.
For the most part, I'm what Protestants might call an Arminian, what Catholics might call a semi-Pelagian, but which I simply call being a Jewish Christian influenced by traditional Jewish universalism as much as by George MacDonald's Christian universalism and C.S. Lewis' modified universalism; note that all acknowledge Gehenna, Hades, Hell, Tartarus as actual places, but differ as to how one arrives there, for how long and what change of heart could lead to being released, if any change is possible.
Me, I pray with Bruriah that sins cease, not sinners. If they repent, then they will no longer be sinners. At any rate, my personal belief is that Jesus is the Savior of the world, but especially of those who believe. God deals with each of us where we are, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists and I cannot see the truth in the Apostle's "no excuse" text without also knowing that God reaches everyone in their lives and it's our free will choice to accept or reject; even if we are predestined to accept easily or to reject easily.
| Broggin wrote: |
And they wonder why atheists have little problem with getting militant |
I don't wonder, it's human nature to be a Fanatic when one truly believes he knows "What Is" or sees "Reality" in ways that the blind simply do not. Atheists are not immune from fanaticism anymore than a religious believer. We are all humans, after all.
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Yipsl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| Broggin wrote: |
"Ooooohhh, did something bad happen to you in life?"
That tore it for me.
...but to imply that I refuse religious belief out of spite, or that I come by my rationalist position because I must be somehow damaged? Lady, you just went to the wrong place. |
So, the argument works both ways. People come to faith damaged and they come to atheism damaged. They come to faith without damage and they come to atheism without damage. I can laugh at infidel atheists writing their own hymns using Christian ones they way Christians used drinking song tunes for their hymns centuries ago, but those very same infidels quote atheist e-mails that relate the damage religion allegedly caused them.
So, it works both ways and the same tactics are used by missionaries going door to door as well as by atheists going message board to message board. It's all based upon something wrong and needy in the other person's life.
| Broggin wrote: |
Nope, I tell her. I've had WONDERFUL things happen in my life. And all without praying to a non existent entity for his or her generosity in making em happen. I've come by my atheism as a result of dumping my fears instead of clutching a security blanket, and accepting the world as it is, and you would do well to do the same. Thank you, and now good day.
|
You know Broggin, I had many atheists tell me that I was only religious because I had bad things happen to me. My childhood wasn't perfect, though it wasn't as bad as others I've seen. Because of it, I gained a great appreciation of God's promise in Isaiah 49:15.
Yet, that was not why I believed. I believed because of personal experience. I sensed God in my life. Not an invisible god up in the sky, not the mockery that atheists love to trot out and that might very well be based upon artistic images like the Sistine Chapel, but which is not based on God as experienced by Jewish and Christian believers.
I accept the world as it is too. Considering how differently we see it, I'm very much inclined to accept a modified Calvinism; one that doesn't rely upon TULIP but acknowledges that some are destined to believe and others destined to mock belief as a security blanket wherever they see it. In a sense, that mockery is a security blanket against the Old Time fundamentalism that thumped Bibles on podiums while warning about the wages of sin being death and the reward of the sinner being Hell.
If one can convince oneself that sin is only against a straw man God, and not against other people, and that Hell is only a place for seedy lounge lizard sinners beset by trident carrying cartoon devils, then that's a great security blanket when a moment of God consciousness and self assessment arrives. No one, not even the atheist raised by atheists to the tune of that trendy "Amazing Place" avoids moments when they know that God is not a straw man in the sky and that both Heaven and Hell are real, if imperfectly described places beyond this world; possibly in another part of the multiverse.
Some atheists rebel against religious upbringing, others are raised as atheists. Let me quote those silly infidels again. (Why they want to use the Western form of a Moslem religious term is beyond me -- I guess it's more muscular than freethinker and, though heretic might fit better, as they always seem to be rebelling against Christianity and not Buddhism or Hinduism, they really do want to hide the fact that they are a religious belief system based on animosity towards religion):
| Quote: |
An atheist friend of mine was worried that his children would turn out to be religious. He suggested -- I am not sure how seriously -- that the way to assure their ultimate acceptance of atheism was to subject them to strict religious training. He maintained that this training would cause his children to become atheists. My friend surely had a point. We all know nonbelievers who as children rebelled against their strict religious upbringings. Unfortunately, it does not always or even usually turn out that way. In any case, atheists come to their atheism in many different ways and the stories of conversions to atheism are manifold. |
I sympathize with you. Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert other Christians more than the nonbelievers. They are a sect bent on thinking they have the sole truth of the world as it is; much like those pesky infidels, by the way. Me, I'm more accepting of variations in Biblical belief. It's the fruits of what a person does, not the theologies or philosophies they study. It's our relationship with Christ, not our Christologies that make us Christians.
For the most part, I'm what Protestants might call an Arminian, what Catholics might call a semi-Pelagian, but which I simply call being a Jewish Christian influenced by traditional Jewish universalism as much as by George MacDonald's Christian universalism and C.S. Lewis' modified universalism; note that all acknowledge Gehenna, Hades, Hell, Tartarus as actual places, but differ as to how one arrives there, for how long and what change of heart could lead to being released, if any change is possible.
Me, I pray with Bruriah that sins cease, not sinners. If they repent, then they will no longer be sinners. At any rate, my personal belief is that Jesus is the Savior of the world, but especially of those who believe. God deals with each of us where we are, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists and I cannot see the truth in the Apostle's "no excuse" text without also knowing that God reaches everyone in their lives and it's our free will choice to accept or reject; even if we are predestined to accept easily or to reject easily.
| Broggin wrote: |
And they wonder why atheists have little problem with getting militant |
I don't wonder, it's human nature to be a Fanatic when one truly believes he knows "What Is" or sees "Reality" in ways that the blind simply do not. Atheists are not immune from fanaticism anymore than a religious believer. We are all humans, after all.
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Yipsl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Broggin wrote: |
"Ooooohhh, did something bad happen to you in life?"
That tore it for me.
...but to imply that I refuse religious belief out of spite, or that I come by my rationalist position because I must be somehow damaged? Lady, you just went to the wrong place. |
So, the argument works both ways. People come to faith damaged and they come to atheism damaged. They come to faith without damage and they come to atheism without damage. I can laugh at infidel atheists writing their own hymns using Christian ones they way Christians used drinking song tunes for their hymns centuries ago, but those very same infidels quote atheist e-mails that relate the damage religion allegedly caused them.
So, it works both ways and the same tactics are used by missionaries going door to door as well as by atheists going message board to message board. It's all based upon something wrong and needy in the other person's life.
| Broggin wrote: |
Nope, I tell her. I've had WONDERFUL things happen in my life. And all without praying to a non existent entity for his or her generosity in making em happen. I've come by my atheism as a result of dumping my fears instead of clutching a security blanket, and accepting the world as it is, and you would do well to do the same. Thank you, and now good day.
|
You know Broggin, I had many atheists tell me that I was only religious because I had bad things happen to me. My childhood wasn't perfect, though it wasn't as bad as others I've seen. Because of it, I gained a great appreciation of God's promise in Isaiah 49:15.
Yet, that was not why I believed. I believed because of personal experience. I sensed God in my life. Not an invisible god up in the sky, not the mockery that atheists love to trot out and that might very well be based upon artistic images like the Sistine Chapel, but which is not based on God as experienced by Jewish and Christian believers.
I accept the world as it is too. Considering how differently we see it, I'm very much inclined to accept a modified Calvinism; one that doesn't rely upon TULIP but acknowledges that some are destined to believe and others destined to mock belief as a security blanket wherever they see it. In a sense, that mockery is a security blanket against the Old Time fundamentalism that thumped Bibles on podiums while warning about the wages of sin being death and the reward of the sinner being Hell.
If one can convince oneself that sin is only against a straw man God, and not against other people, and that Hell is only a place for seedy lounge lizard sinners beset by trident carrying cartoon devils, then that's a great security blanket when a moment of God consciousness and self assessment arrives. No one, not even the atheist raised by atheists to the tune of that trendy "Amazing Place" avoids moments when they know that God is not a straw man in the sky and that both Heaven and Hell are real, if imperfectly described places beyond this world; possibly in another part of the multiverse.
Some atheists rebel against religious upbringing, others are raised as atheists. Let me quote those silly infidels again. (Why they want to use the Western form of a Moslem religious term is beyond me -- I guess it's more muscular than freethinker and, though heretic might fit better, as they always seem to be rebelling against Christianity and not Buddhism or Hinduism, they really do want to hide the fact that they are a religious belief system based on animosity towards religion):
| Quote: |
An atheist friend of mine was worried that his children would turn out to be religious. He suggested -- I am not sure how seriously -- that the way to assure their ultimate acceptance of atheism was to subject them to strict religious training. He maintained that this training would cause his children to become atheists. My friend surely had a point. We all know nonbelievers who as children rebelled against their strict religious upbringings. Unfortunately, it does not always or even usually turn out that way. In any case, atheists come to their atheism in many different ways and the stories of conversions to atheism are manifold. |
I sympathize with you. Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert other Christians more than the nonbelievers. They are a sect bent on thinking they have the sole truth of the world as it is; much like those pesky infidels, by the way. Me, I'm more accepting of variations in Biblical belief. It's the fruits of what a person does, not the theologies or philosophies they study. It's our relationship with Christ, not our Christologies that make us Christians.
For the most part, I'm what Protestants might call an Arminian, what Catholics might call a semi-Pelagian, but which I simply call being a Jewish Christian influenced by traditional Jewish universalism as much as by George MacDonald's Christian universalism and C.S. Lewis' modified universalism; note that all acknowledge Gehenna, Hades, Hell, Tartarus as actual places, but differ as to how one arrives there, for how long and what change of heart could lead to being released, if any change is possible.
Me, I pray with Bruriah that sins cease, not sinners. If they repent, then they will no longer be sinners. At any rate, my personal belief is that Jesus is the Savior of the world, but especially of those who believe. God deals with each of us where we are, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists and I cannot see the truth in the Apostle's "no excuse" text without also knowing that God reaches everyone in their lives and it's our free will choice to accept or reject; even if we are predestined to accept easily or to reject easily.
| Broggin wrote: |
And they wonder why atheists have little problem with getting militant |
I don't wonder, it's human nature to be a Fanatic when one truly believes he knows "What Is" or sees "Reality" in ways that the blind simply do not. Atheists are not immune from fanaticism anymore than a religious believer. We are all humans, after all.
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 303
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: It goes both ways |
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| Broggin wrote: |
"Ooooohhh, did something bad happen to you in life?"
That tore it for me.
...but to imply that I refuse religious belief out of spite, or that I come by my rationalist position because I must be somehow damaged? Lady, you just went to the wrong place. |
Your argument works both ways. People come to faith damaged and they come to atheism damaged. They come to faith without damage and they come to atheism without damage.
I can laugh at infidel atheists writing their own hymns using Christian ones they way Christians used drinking song tunes for their hymns centuries ago, but those very same infidels quote other atheists about the damage religion allegedly caused them. So, it's not all that different, since both are belief systems, and the same tactics are often used by missionaries going door to door as well as by atheists going message board to message board. Both often claim to have the answers to reality as it is, and both respond based on personal experience; not rational arguments.
| Broggin wrote: |
Nope, I tell her. I've had WONDERFUL things happen in my life. And all without praying to a non existent entity for his or her generosity in making em happen. I've come by my atheism as a result of dumping my fears instead of clutching a security blanket, and accepting the world as it is, and you would do well to do the same. Thank you, and now good day.
|
You know Broggin, I had many atheists tell me that I was only religious because I had bad things happen to me. My childhood wasn't perfect, though it wasn't as bad as others I've seen. Because of it, I gained a great appreciation of God's promise in Isaiah 49:15.
Yet, that was not why I believed. I believed because of personal experience. I sensed God in my life. Not an invisible god up in the sky, not the mockery that atheists love to trot out and that might very well be based upon artistic images like the Sistine Chapel, but which is not based on God as experienced by Jewish and Christian believers.
I accept the world as it is too. Considering how differently we see it, I'm very much inclined to accept a modified Calvinism; one that doesn't rely upon TULIP but acknowledges that some are inclined to religion and others inclined to mock religion as a security blanket wherever they see it. In a sense, that mockery is also a security blanket against the Old Time fundamentalism that thumped Bibles on podiums while warning about the wages of sin being death and the reward of the sinner being Hell.
If one can convince oneself that sin is only against a straw man God, and not against other people, and that Hell is only a place for seedy lounge lizard sinners beset by trident carrying cartoon devils, then that's a great security blanket when a moment of God consciousness and self assessment arrives.
No one, not even the atheist raised by atheists to the tune of that trendy "Amazing Place" avoids moments when they know that God is not a straw man in the sky and that both Heaven and Hell are real, if imperfectly described places beyond this world; possibly in another part of the multiverse. Just as Galileo shook up geocentrism, so the new physics shakes up the kind of material universalism that prevented the higher and lower worlds of folklore and religion from being seriously considered.
Let me quote those silly self described infidels again:
| Quote: |
An atheist friend of mine was worried that his children would turn out to be religious. He suggested -- I am not sure how seriously -- that the way to assure their ultimate acceptance of atheism was to subject them to strict religious training. He maintained that this training would cause his children to become atheists. My friend surely had a point. We all know nonbelievers who as children rebelled against their strict religious upbringings. Unfortunately, it does not always or even usually turn out that way. In any case, atheists come to their atheism in many different ways and the stories of conversions to atheism are manifold. |
So if you came to atheism in happiness, then that's good. I'd hate to see anyone damaged by a cult, whether religious or secular. Just note that formal atheism, especially that found in secular churches like the infidel's advance for atheist education, can also be a cult. A cult is not determined by belief, but by leadership styles. Never join one. In religious belief or secular belief, always incline towards a humanism that respects people's differences in belief and understanding.
Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert other Christians more than the nonbelievers. They are a sect bent on thinking they have the sole truth of the world as it is; much like those pesky infidels, by the way. Me, I'm more accepting of variations in Biblical belief. It's the fruits of what a person does, not the theologies or philosophies they study. It's our relationship with Christ, not our Christologies that make us Christians.
For the most part, I'm what Protestants might call an Arminian, what Catholics might call a semi-Pelagian, but which I simply call being influenced by traditional Jewish universalism as much as by George MacDonald's Christian universalism and C.S. Lewis' literary universalism; note that all acknowledge Gehenna, Hades, Hell, Tartarus as actual places, but differ as to how one arrives there, for how long and what change of heart could lead to being released, if any change is possible.
Me, I pray with Bruriah that sins cease, not sinners. If they repent, then they will no longer be sinners. At any rate, my personal belief is that Jesus is the Savior of the world, but especially of those who believe. God deals with each of us where we are, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists and I cannot see the truth in the Apostle's "no excuse" text without also knowing that God reaches everyone in their lives and it's our free will choice to accept or reject; even if we are inclined to accept easily or to reject easily.
| Broggin wrote: |
And they wonder why atheists have little problem with getting militant |
I don't wonder, it's human nature to be a Fanatic when one truly believes he knows "What Is" or sees "Reality" in ways that the blind simply do not. Atheists are not immune from fanaticism anymore than a religious believer. We are all humans, after all.
Note that I've changed my username because I couldn't log in today and I'm basically going with family folklore instead, so I asked Skep to change the name I sign in under for the Folklore board. After all, all Somervilles are descended from a knight of William the Conqueror, and my mother's side is descending from the Scotch-Irish branch of the family, who are descended from William de Somerville, noted for slaying what was perhaps the laziest wyrm in British Isles folklore:
| Quote: |
Linton
The Linton worm was perhaps the laziest British dragon. It lived in a cave on Linton Hill and instead of actively hunting prey; it would suck passing animals and people into its waiting maw.
After eating it would crawl out of its lair and coil around the hill, leaving deep impressions. Local peasantry offered a reward to whoever could slay the worm. The knight who took up the challenge was the Laird of Linton, who was from the Somerville.
He attached a lump of peat to a wheel that he then fitted to the end of his lance. He dipped the peat in boiling pitch, brimstone, and resin. He set light to the concoction and charged at the worm, ramming it down the beast’s throat.
He was also rewarded by being given the post of Royal Falconer to the King of Scotland. |
http://www.foolishpeople.com/foolishpeople/2005/11/british_dragon_.html
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Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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I think this thread should be moved to the Religion Forum.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 303
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TheScamDetective wrote: |
| I think this thread should be moved to the Religion Forum. |
I agree, since it's about missionaries and different styles of belief.
It's me Scam, I reregistered because it would not accept my username and password today, even after a reset. I'd been thinking of changing my e-mail address to family folklore oriented and I asked Skep to switch my Folklore board moderator privileges over to my new username and to delete the old one.
I also got "thread does not exist" when i tried to post the above under my old yipsl user name. I feel more Scotch-Irish nowadays than Jewish since I became a Christian.
Personally, I never liked door to door missionaries, they're usually not after nonbelievers but more mainstream Christians. I'm glad the Jehovah's Witnesses in my neighborhood leave their tracts in the laundry rooms and the only Chic publication tracts left on my door the past four years were in Spanish.
Daniel
_________________
Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome back, Daniel.
See ya on the Religion Forum.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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My nephew is a JW and on his conversion to the faith it caused some major problems in the family, not least for the rabid evangalising mission he was bent on. At the time he was sufering some pretty bad mental health problems, how much one had to do with the other I don't really know but I will say that at the time he was at his worst he was oblivious to anything but 'spreading the word' to the point it almost caused my sister and her husband to divorce because of the rows he was causing.
Now he's better, he's settled and has a nice girlfreind, also a JW, she is no where near as hardcore about practicing the religion as he once was, although if people want to discuss it she's more than happy too. I've never had any hassle from them about my sexuality and to be honest there's an unwritten rule that we keep religion out of any discussions as far as possible. Thank God it seems to work now. I'm all for people being able to practice there faith freely, and for them to put it out there for those who might be interested but respect on both sides is pretty much essential IMO.
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3284
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| I have to wonder where they get the courage to press forward,they have doors slammed in thier faces all day long and still they press on. I encountered two JW in the parking lot of Shaws grocery store.They were both black southern men that were about as kind and polite as Ive ever seen.They passed out their literature and I have a feeling they touched a few people they crossed paths with,funny,Ive never forgotten these two.
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HopoUK
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Brixham, Devon, England
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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One of my brothers is a JW. Devotedly. He goes to the Kingdom Hall twice weekly, and hosts or goes to bible discussions twice weekly. He also married within the faith.....twice. His first wife cheated on him, so they divorced. She was kicked out of the faith, but guess what? 2 years later, they let her back in. I must admit that he seems happy with his second wife after 15 years of bliss as he puts it.
At first, when he became a JW, he was always trying to convert us. He even got our parents to visit the Kingdom Hall a few times, and to take part in bible discussions. It didn't work. My parents stopped going, and I'm an atheist, so he gave up years ago. Now we never talk about religion when he visits, which is fine by me, but his beliefs are his own, so long as he never tries to force them onto us.
A person should be allowed to believe whatever they wish, so I've never tried to convert my brother to atheism.
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3284
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Is Atheism a belief system Hopo?
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paulkimball
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 136
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Carol Nistri wrote: |
| Is Atheism a belief system Hopo? |
Carol,
Absolutely it's a belief, although I might not quite say a systemic one in the sense of organized religion. Also, it might be cheekily characterized as a "non-belief", but it's still a person who believes a proposition - there is no God - and asserts it as a proven fact, even though they can't offer any proof. That's why agnosticism, in my opinion, is the only logical course.
Paul
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