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Yipsl
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: Why does Ataraxik refuse to address the issues? |
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He seems to be setting up a Klass style straw man on the UFO board? He absolutely refuses to address issues he claims other posters are not addressing. Instead, he just attacks poor naif Carol, and occasionally Scam. He does not address issues brought up by me, Skep or Dr. Wu.
Do we need more skeptics on this board? Only if they're honest skeptics and not just looking to debunk the usual suspected non-phenomena by attacking the inability of amateurs to conduct science when the skeptical culture discourages trained scientists from getting involved.
That's why the only scientific work on the fringe that's actually bearing any fruit is that done by soft scientists. Skeptics have discouraged "hard" science from studying the phenomena through the denial of funding, the mocking of scientists who get involved outside their field on their own time, and through advocating a philosophy that is no more scientific than religion, and which has its own catechisms and its own theologies enshrined in the words of famous men quoted virtually by chapter and verse in any discussion with non skeptics.
If Ataraxik is Yaish, then he's gone downhill over the years. If he's Paul (not Kimball, the Xproject skeptic of yore), then it's par for the course. At any rate, perhaps he'd like to address the culture of science instead of just attacking straw men?
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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Yipsl
I tried to have discussions and debates with him and he told me to "stop bothering him" so I have gladly granted him his request.
That is all I have to say on the subject.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Carol Nistri
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 3284
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: Naif? Im a Naif?? |
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whats a Naif?
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words AntonymsNoun 1. naif - a naive or inexperienced person
inexperienced person, innocent - a person who lacks knowledge of evil
Adj. 1. naif - marked by or showing unaffected simplicity and lack of guile or worldly experience; "a teenager's naive ignorance of life"; "the naive assumption that things can only get better"; "this naive simple creature with wide friendly eyes so eager to believe appearances"
naive
credulous - disposed to believe on little evidence; "the gimmick would convince none but the most credulous"
uninformed - not informed; lacking in knowledge or information; "the uninformed public"
unworldly - not concerned with the temporal world or swayed by mundane considerations; "was unworldly and did not greatly miss worldly rewards"- Sheldon Cheney
oh,cough yes yes I am.
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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The reason I don't bother with Scam Detective is because he is incapable of rational discussion and hears only what he wishes too -in fact, got even my reason wrong. I did not tell him to not bother me, I merely said that having found him incapable, I wouldn't bother him anymore and, to avoid board ugliness, I haven't.
Ypsli I haven't told, and perhaps he deserves an explanation. I'll give it once and will not bother him anymore either. I did read a couple of his first posts directed at me, and basically they follow the same pattern: He tells me what he is, what he thinks and believes, and why he's right. Then he tells me what I am, what I think and believe, and why I'm wrong. In discussions with Ypsli it is clear he will cover my side of any discussion for me and my participation isn't necesssary. It didn't help that I received PMs warning me about his confused concepts of what constitutes a 'discussion'. Basically, I see no profit discussing anything with a fundie blowhard and, to avoid board ugliness, I haven't.
Everyone else has been fine, easy to discuss things with, and for that I am grateful.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Again I am mistaken for a man ....sigh.
Even when I post my picture, I am still referred to as a "he/him."
Perhaps I should change my nic to LadyScamDetective!!!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Btw...just to clear things up, on the thread England is Having a Banner Year in Crop Circles, post #263 dated Aug 21st..Atar said to me:
"What part of 'don't bother me, you are pointless to discuss anything with' do you not understand?"
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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My apologies. Now go away. lol
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2245
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't had any problems with Ataraxik but I can understand why his skeptical position might upset some.
I don't understand why yipsl is upset but half the time I can't figure out yipsl anyway.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've been advised he changes philosophies and religions like other people change their underwear, but is totally convinced each philosophy or religion is 100% correct -for as long as he happens to believe it.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2245
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ataraxik wrote: |
| I've been advised he changes philosophies and religions like other people change their underwear, but is totally convinced each philosophy or religion is 100% correct -for as long as he happens to believe it. |
No comment....
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Yipsl
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Ataraxik wrote: |
Ypsli I haven't told, and perhaps he deserves an explanation. I'll give it once and will not bother him anymore either. I did read a couple of his first posts directed at me, and basically they follow the same pattern: He tells me what he is, what he thinks and believes, and why he's right. |
That's not true at all. Yes, I mention my belief. You mention your beliefs too (ie "infidel" etc.). I state that UFOs, or any fringe phenomena is folklore and that folklore happens. The question is why folklore happens. If it turns out that my spiritual beliefs prevent me from having any input into why folklore happens, then I'd like to be told why that is so. In other words, if, in your opinion, a Christian cannot have valid beliefs on fringe phenomena that I'd like to get to the bottom of it
Persinger has done some science on the fringe, which helps to place abductions in the realm where it belongs, human psychology, but few scientists ever get funding for fringe research because of the culture of science. The culture of science, which is quite separate from the methodology of science, is the problem I see here.
When skeptics lampoon amateur scientists on the fringe then they are basically creating a straw man. They rely upon the misuse of the term "scientific" by people who usually fail in attempting science. Ataraxik thinks that UFO do not deserve pleading, but he continues to beat the dead horse of amateur science done badly by UFO organizations. That strikes me as a religious belief.
So, Ataraxik, go to your local infidel skeptical church and sing a rousing chorus of "Amazing Place" with other infidels. Reassure yourself that all the damned data is still in the outer darkness and that us religious bleevers and other heretics aren't worthy of attention. I'm sure you'll feel all tingly materialistic wise afterwards.
Do infidels have ice cream socials?
| Ataraxik wrote: |
| I've been advised he changes philosophies and religions like other people change their underwear, but is totally convinced each philosophy or religion is 100% correct -for as long as he happens to believe it. |
Of course Dr. Wu would agree with you. He changes even more readily, from pathless path to Sam Harris. What skeptics like yourself can't comprehend is a search for truth that lies outside the limited confines of reductionism. I'm sure you'll be welcoming Doug as an infidel and atheist once he gets over this latest bout of agnosticism.
Folklore led me to Christianity because I concluded that the evil described in folklore demonology and Keel's UFO research didn't fit the liberal religious humanism that I espoused during the 18 years I was Jewish. I had an experience of the Numinous too, so call Persinger and let him explain it as just random electrical impulses in my brain. Perhaps he could "explain" which part of my brain found Jesus, who I'd heard so much about all my life but never really knew until I accepted Him as my Savior.
Influenced by the examples of Dr. Wu and Ataraxik, I'm starting to change my spiritual undies again, I'm starting to think that George MacDonald's Christian universalism just might not be accurate, and that Calvinism is right! The one thing that prevents me from accepting Calvinism is the fruits of his life and political work in Geneva. I just can't get over people being burned at the stake or mistreated by the committee of public safety.
I'm averse to totalitarianism in human thought, which makes me doubt Calvinism as well as modern skepticism. Though I believe that God is good, I'll admit that God is not safe. Perhaps people can eternally damn themselves by rejecting spiritual truth, but I won't think that God places that right in the hands of fallible human beings to damn anyone else but themselves.
So I think I"ll reject both Calvinism and modern skepticism. One is too quick to call damnation upon fools like Ataraxik and Dr. Wu and the other is too quick to damn any data that is not welcomed at the local Church of Infidelity, which is really an amazing piece of psychological work set in this genuinely Amazing Place that God has created for us.
So, Ataraxik and Dr. Wu, here is your home, go to it and worship for all you're worth:
| Quote: |
Singing atheistic songs is a powerful but usually overlooked educational tool. Music brings people together by creating community spirit, stirring the emotions and educating the heart not just the head. Religious leaders understand this lesson very well and use music as an essential part of religions training. Unfortunately, few atheists' leaders have provided moving songs for their groups. However, there is no reason why atheists cannot create new words to the stirring music of hymns. Indeed, this is precisely what Barbara Stocker did in writing new words for the best known of all American hymn tunes, Amazing Grace, which she called Amazing Place (copyright 1998 Barbara Hamill Stocker).
Amazing place, this world I find,
No gods nor creed need be.
I once believed, but now my mind
Unbound, at last is free.
A mind that's free to plan and build
For all humanity
Will find its life and dreams fulfilled
In true eupraxophy
I need not strive for heaven above
Nor fear no hell below.
So free to live in peace and love
In kinship I will grow.
No prayer of mine need e're be heard,
Just rationality,
For reason reigns o'er holy word
For all humanity.
Atheistic newsletters and newspapers can also serve an important education function for their readers. An important tendency that atheists should acquire is sensitivity to issues affecting atheism such as church state issues, and the political power of religion. Atheistic newsletters and newspapers can sensitize their reader to those issues both local and national that are not covered by their local media. Secular Subjects perform this function. So does The Newsletter of the Rational Society of St. Louis and FFRF's Freethought Today.
Conclusion: Prospects for the Future
The prospects for atheistic education are closely tied to the prospects of atheism movement as a whole. Although progress is being made too few atheistic groups have the equivalent of Sunday schools and adult education programs. Better and more children's books need to written, and more extensive certification programs are needed. In short, atheistic educators have done well with limited resources. But they need our support to do more and better work. |
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/martin1.html
Chesterton was right. When people cease to believe in God, they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything, including turning unbelief into it's own religion.
| dr wu23 wrote: |
I haven't had any problems with Ataraxik but I can understand why his skeptical position might upset some.
I don't understand why yipsl is upset but half the time I can't figure out yipsl anyway.
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It's that meandering pathless path that's led nowhere. Try examining your axioms again and maybe you'll find your way home.
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2245
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| yipsl: It 's that meandering pathless path that's led nowhere. Try examining your axioms again and maybe you'll find your way home. |
My 'pathless path' has nothing to do with your own personal confusion and yo-yoing.
And more to the point..there is no home to get to and nowhere to go . It is already in you and right where you are sitting now.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Broggin
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 128
Location: Way down sooouuuth, a dixie
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I've always been amused by folks who swing from one ideological system to another, comparing each as if they were indeed clothes, in this case the aforementioned "undies", and picking and choosing among them depending upon their state of mind at that particular time. As if each one was somehow "truer" than the next. As if one or another will eventually lead to the path of enlightenment and understanding, and all will be good and joyus once that certain ideology is found.
It's amusing, because each is nothing more than the failed attempts by others to put to rights their inability to make sense of the world they were born into. Being an atheist, I've found it very simple to look at these with my reductionist blinders firmly in place of course, and see that each is no better than the next, and some downright hideous. I think it speaks to several things personaly about those doing this picking and choosing.
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1349
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Broggin
At last, a fellow Atheist!! Well said...those who criticize Atheists the most are either religious zealots or those who cannot make up their own mind about which denomination is the right one!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Broggin
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Posts: 128
Location: Way down sooouuuth, a dixie
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I bring this up because of Yips' mention of having gone from one to the other. Back when I was "--------", but now I'm "---------"
What is it? Flip a quarter, heads it's Judaism, tails Catholicsm? Why switch? None has any more strength than the other. They all ask the same thing of you, and offer the same thing. Sure there are differing requirements, I could never be Muslim, the beard would drive me nuts.
Why do they not note the core of these ideologies are all the same, believe because, well, just because?
Does it not occur when making the comparisons, shopping around as it were, that there is no requirement in this life, that you must follow a faith? Or is it the avoidance of just that fact?
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