its almost with fear and trepidation that I ask,

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

what would convince you Steve,as one skeptic said,"we've got a ton of soft evidence" I know its hard evidence thats lacking,so what would it take to have convinced Mr.Klass and Steve?

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

**Skeptical** · Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:12 am Post subject:

I would think that Klass would have required a piece of hard evidence, something he could hold in his hand (either literally or figuratively). That piece of evidence must, in and of itself, demonstrate "alien-ness'. It would require no support of human testimony. It could stand alone. I think a piece of technology would easily fill the bill. Biological evidence (from a body down to DNA) would also work.

The thing that Klass didn't like is that all the alleged hard evidence we have requires some human somewhere to associate it with a UFO sighting (e.g. this burnt bush is evidence because Bob saw it scorched by a UFO). If someone were to produce protoplasm of a silicon-based life form or some such thing - something that scientists could put under their microscopes, then collectively ask, "What the hell is that?" - that would make an impact. But, as long as human testimony is so tightly integrated with all the evidence we have, we will see no great movement in the interest of mainstream science in UFOs.

S

PS: Here's a link to an article on a guy who says he has hard evidence - but only because he claims it's evidence:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001961735_ufo22.html
_________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -- Thomas Jefferson

Ataraxik · Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject:

Aluminum in a teardrop shape is a classic space junk profile. And once again I see that mainstream science, which refuses to look at UFOs, looked at his UFO. Unfortunately he's having a hard time accepting they found nothing extraterrestrial.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

**Somerville Changeling** · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 396 Location: Central Texas

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

naw Yip,I mean Somer,nothing so dramatic as a flying saucer landing on the white house lawn,the one and only thing that would do it for these guys is to have this government and this government alone to make a public declaration that flying saucers are real,does anyone know what fun that would be? It would.

Steve · Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

our dealings with skeptics have made them less like skeptics and more like men that refuse to be moved even one inch in any direction.Theres something to be said for scientific method but how many men of discovery had that attitude of science is always right.Science is a manmade thing,it could be wrong.Maybe wrong is the incorrect answer perhaps incomplete.Theres room for expansion.From what Ive gathered it seems that science restricts thinking,you cant think outside of these peramiters its forbidden,that alone should make some kick over there traces.

Steve · Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 93

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

lets say this,the day comes when theres a very public announcement,take your pick,President Bush? Ok Pres.Bush calls a news conference in which he along with all the vips from his administration reveal to the public that flying saucers are real,he also says in that same conference that because of national security no details will be made public,the only thing you are told is that its all true,he touches on space craft,alien abdcutions lets see what else,well whatever weve been discussing for years he touches on it finishing up by saying that it was thought that the time was right for the public to be made aware of this phenomenon once and forall. Now,Steve,think about this first,if no other information is forthcoming to the public wouldnt you believe the announcement from the government that ufos are real? No scientific information whatsoever is going to be given to the public only the governments assurance that all of the stories all these years have basis in fact. What would be your reaction?

Ataraxik · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject:

First, let me tie a long, stout rope around Steve's ankle before he gets any deeper into intellectual debate with Ms. Carol.

Then, let me add that such a declaration and expectation of belief from a president, offered without accompanying evidence, constitutes the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority and is to be doubted until conclusive evidence is presented.

Nixon: "Well, I am not a crook!"
Daddy Bush: "Read my lips - no new taxes!"
Clinton: "I did not have sex with that woman!"

You doubt it because it comes from a politician, never mind the extraordinary nature of the claim.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

"Then, let me add that such a declaration and expectation of belief from a president, offered without accompanying evidence, constitutes the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority and is to be doubted until conclusive evidence is presented."

Ill bet you anything and initially that wouldnt be so.Maybe after the general public had time to think of it but not right off the bat.The first reaction would run the gamet but only the scientists and those that had been duped would demand that the evidence is presented to the public,then would start a whole new round of questions without answers,but for many this would be the holy grail,It also could be a disastor,the person that does the revealing holds all the cards,and the strings.

**dr wu23** · Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 2294 Location: Indiana

Carol,
If the president announced that ufos are aliens from space the first thing the press/media would do is ask for evidence of how the govt. knows this is so. If there was none given many would remain skeptical about the declaration.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man

**Carol Nistri** · Joined: 16 Jun 2007 Posts: 3350

my,Im surprised your saying that Dr.Wu,that means theres a hole in my story,hmm.Ok hows about this. The meeting is called from the Oval office,no reporters are there. (and the crowd roars...) Laughing

Ataraxik · Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject:

I'd like to request a translator, please... (?)
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde