but what would be the point of all the tom foolery on their part dr.Wu,theve gone thru great pains to have mankind believe their alien in nature and are abducting people for a bizzare experiement,whats their point? All this is just plain immature foolishness if its just beings from another dimension playing senseless head games.

dr wu23 wrote:Bruce,
Your last blog on Dolan and NASA was intriguing as your blog always is.

Do we have little to refine in our understanding of the nature of things are are we completely missing the point about the true nature of Reality?
Is Science the new religion of the future and will it solve all of our enigmas or will it only box us in and take us away from what really is?

I do honestly feel that the longer this whole ufo enigma goes on the more I am convinced it's not just run-of-the -mill space aliens....but ...?

In two recent posts on my blog I ruminated on your questions as well as in the UFO Magazine blog, and I think this may represent a psychological probe if you consider the number of posts here after a major event..or that it demonstrates a recurring test regimen that if you make the critical assumption, which I admit is difficult to do, but if you considered that this agency is not omniscient, all knowing...you could deconstruct the psychology of this strange human species by presenting them with intentional absurdities in relation to their own self referential standards. You could on a more prosaic level do this here by simply reading the responses to the stimulus of this phenomenon. and measuring them. Of course this would require a more global analysis..for an accurate litmus test, which may be what is occurring.. Fly Fishing in the current of human psychology..with a lure.

Carol Nistri wrote:but what would be the point of all the tom foolery on their part dr.Wu,theve gone thru great pains to have mankind believe their alien in nature and are abducting people for a bizzare experiement,whats their point? All this is just plain immature foolishness if its just beings from another dimension playing senseless head games.

I think the problem might be how we are interpreting or experienceing the phenomenon. In other words, is what we experience when we interact with ufos and aliens really happening? Or are we putting it in ways our brains can understand? Are people really literally being taken somewhere? Are we really seeing space aliens? Are discs seen in the sky really machine craft?
Or is something else going on with our perceptions of this whole enigma?

Again it's possible more than one phenom is happening and we see/interpret both as ufo beings but they could be two or more phenomena.

Bruce Duensing wrote:

dr wu23 wrote:Bruce,
Your last blog on Dolan and NASA was intriguing as your blog always is.

Do we have little to refine in our understanding of the nature of things are are we completely missing the point about the true nature of Reality?
Is Science the new religion of the future and will it solve all of our enigmas or will it only box us in and take us away from what really is?

I do honestly feel that the longer this whole ufo enigma goes on the more I am convinced it's not just run-of-the -mill space aliens....but ...?

In two recent posts on my blog I ruminated on your questions as well as in the UFO Magazine blog, and I think this may represent a psychological probe if you consider the number of posts here after a major event..or that it demonstrates a recurring test regimen that if you make the critical assumption, which I admit is difficult to do, but if you considered that this agency is not omniscient, all knowing...you could deconstruct the psychology of this strange human species by presenting them with intentional absurdities in relation to their own self referential standards. You could on a more prosaic level do this here by simply reading the responses to the stimulus of this phenomenon. and measuring them. Of course this would require a more global analysis..for an accurate litmus test, which may be what is occurring.. Fly Fishing in the current of human psychology..with a lure.

Who are the fishermen..? Are they ET's, unknown beings, or ourselves..?

dr wu23 wrote:

Bruce Duensing wrote:

dr wu23 wrote:Bruce,
Your last blog on Dolan and NASA was intriguing as your blog always is.

Do we have little to refine in our understanding of the nature of things are are we completely missing the point about the true nature of Reality?
Is Science the new religion of the future and will it solve all of our enigmas or will it only box us in and take us away from what really is?

I do honestly feel that the longer this whole ufo enigma goes on the more I am convinced it's not just run-of-the -mill space aliens....but ...?

In two recent posts on my blog I ruminated on your questions as well as in the UFO Magazine blog, and I think this may represent a psychological probe if you consider the number of posts here after a major event..or that it demonstrates a recurring test regimen that if you make the critical assumption, which I admit is difficult to do, but if you considered that this agency is not omniscient, all knowing...you could deconstruct the psychology of this strange human species by presenting them with intentional absurdities in relation to their own self referential standards. You could on a more prosaic level do this here by simply reading the responses to the stimulus of this phenomenon. and measuring them. Of course this would require a more global analysis..for an accurate litmus test, which may be what is occurring.. Fly Fishing in the current of human psychology..with a lure.

Who are the fishermen..? Are they ET's, unknown beings, or ourselves..?

I think its both. We are angling for them in a form of necromancy and they for us..I dont think it's ET in the strict sense but it seems reasonable that it's a non human variant of human experience..whether this is superimposition, in other words using our own sensory and written language as a carrier.. or simply a feedback loop using the same methodology as our brain operates..in a feedback loop or both..I dont know...it seems to broadcast on a inner and outer convergence of experiential deconstruction to our orientation. I think the real danger in all this is that we take it at face value and begin naming the unnameable.

Bruce Duensing wrote:

dr wu23 wrote:

Bruce Duensing wrote:

dr wu23 wrote:Bruce,
Your last blog on Dolan and NASA was intriguing as your blog always is.

Do we have little to refine in our understanding of the nature of things are are we completely missing the point about the true nature of Reality?
Is Science the new religion of the future and will it solve all of our enigmas or will it only box us in and take us away from what really is?

I do honestly feel that the longer this whole ufo enigma goes on the more I am convinced it's not just run-of-the -mill space aliens....but ...?

In two recent posts on my blog I ruminated on your questions as well as in the UFO Magazine blog, and I think this may represent a psychological probe if you consider the number of posts here after a major event..or that it demonstrates a recurring test regimen that if you make the critical assumption, which I admit is difficult to do, but if you considered that this agency is not omniscient, all knowing...you could deconstruct the psychology of this strange human species by presenting them with intentional absurdities in relation to their own self referential standards. You could on a more prosaic level do this here by simply reading the responses to the stimulus of this phenomenon. and measuring them. Of course this would require a more global analysis..for an accurate litmus test, which may be what is occurring.. Fly Fishing in the current of human psychology..with a lure.

Who are the fishermen..? Are they ET's, unknown beings, or ourselves..?

I think its both. We are angling for them in a form of necromancy and they for us..I dont think it's ET in the strict sense but it seems reasonable that it's a non human variant of human experience..whether this is superimposition, in other words using our own sensory and written language as a carrier.. or simply a feedback loop using the same methodology as our brain operates..in a feedback loop or both..I dont know...it seems to broadcast on a inner and outer convergence of experiential deconstruction to our orientation. I think the real danger in all this is that we take it at face value and begin naming the unnameable.

What you said made me think of the film Solaris. I had seen the George Clooney version two years ago but I just recently saw the orginal version.
The planet 'Solaris' 'communicated' (or refelected us) with us via the creation of lfeforms from our own conciousness and they could never really grasp what it was trying to do. Was it a language barrier or something even deeper like fundamental concepts of the nature of reality and what that means?

dr wu23 wrote:

Bruce Duensing wrote:

dr wu23 wrote:

Bruce Duensing wrote:

dr wu23 wrote:Bruce,
Your last blog on Dolan and NASA was intriguing as your blog always is.

Do we have little to refine in our understanding of the nature of things are are we completely missing the point about the true nature of Reality?
Is Science the new religion of the future and will it solve all of our enigmas or will it only box us in and take us away from what really is?

I do honestly feel that the longer this whole ufo enigma goes on the more I am convinced it's not just run-of-the -mill space aliens....but ...?

In two recent posts on my blog I ruminated on your questions as well as in the UFO Magazine blog, and I think this may represent a psychological probe if you consider the number of posts here after a major event..or that it demonstrates a recurring test regimen that if you make the critical assumption, which I admit is difficult to do, but if you considered that this agency is not omniscient, all knowing...you could deconstruct the psychology of this strange human species by presenting them with intentional absurdities in relation to their own self referential standards. You could on a more prosaic level do this here by simply reading the responses to the stimulus of this phenomenon. and measuring them. Of course this would require a more global analysis..for an accurate litmus test, which may be what is occurring.. Fly Fishing in the current of human psychology..with a lure.

Who are the fishermen..? Are they ET's, unknown beings, or ourselves..?

I think its both. We are angling for them in a form of necromancy and they for us..I dont think it's ET in the strict sense but it seems reasonable that it's a non human variant of human experience..whether this is superimposition, in other words using our own sensory and written language as a carrier.. or simply a feedback loop using the same methodology as our brain operates..in a feedback loop or both..I dont know...it seems to broadcast on a inner and outer convergence of experiential deconstruction to our orientation. I think the real danger in all this is that we take it at face value and begin naming the unnameable.

What you said made me think of the film Solaris. I had seen the George Clooney version two years ago but I just recently saw the orginal version.
The planet 'Solaris' 'communicated' (or refelected us) with us via the creation of lfeforms from our own conciousness and they could never really grasp what it was trying to do. Was it a language barrier or something even deeper like fundamental concepts of the nature of reality and what that means?

I think Solaris was one of those rare films of the genre that was intended for adults. I wish I had enough money to conduct an experiment that I have been mulling over. The basis is that ghosts, abductions, sasquatch, ufo phenomenon are all a form of self organizing waveform, that uses the observer much like a attenuator or receiver which, if you read about quantum cryptography and the observer as a coherence factor that decrypts this strange phenomenon in familiar terms which if you think about it its only inevitable they are mutational variants of familiar references..there is yet to be anything original that does not have a counterpart in everyday life, which while a subtle discernment is I think an important one..in other words, sort of a cybernetic truism..we dont see five legged jellyfish with dog faces or what have you...instead we have skewed stereotypes...
I would like to do a field experiment with a highly trained mediator who can control theta, alpha, beta electrical activity in a location that is a long term site for anomalies..if you ever watch a ghost hunter show, well I am more interested in the hunters than the ghosts, anticipation adrenaline, provoking, all sorts of psycho drama...which to me diminishes the effects even creates them..Add some photon detectors, some infrared to ultraviolet ITC equipment..add a signal delay processor in the feedback loop, use non broadcast frequencies..shut off all power..shielded equipment..and then run a series of experiments ..monitor the bait..the mediator..and then well...this will be too long a post...I think first contact is more likely by ITC than tea at the U.N...I call this cross pollination of techniques.. it seems worth a try..but the photon equipment alone is about $5,000...oh well..it seems were stuck with the bizarro versions of DC comics for now...in terms of paradigms..its irritating. Dr Coral Hull whom I have an ongoing dialog with relates this to shamanism, and diamonic theories, which are sort of related to living systems theory..interdependence and thermodynamics..entangled consciousness..intriguing leads but no coherent model....yet.

http://materialintangible.blogspot.com/ ... rough.htmlFirst Contact Through ITC

Another interesting blog Bruce......
It would indeed be revealing to see what we could discover with techiques like the one you wrote about.
Unforunately it seems like science in general just isn't interested in the 'paranormal'.

dr wu23 wrote:Another interesting blog Bruce......
It would indeed be revealing to see what we could discover with techiques like the one you wrote about.
Unforunately it seems like science in general just isn't interested in the 'paranormal'.

Youre right of course, we'll be in the dark ages for the foreseeable future unless the whole shebang determines to provide us the answers on a silver plate with all the answers predigested on our own terms. Sad but true. If the internet was around several centuries ago, there would be some who ruminated on forums that the world wasn't flat or that the earth was not the center of the solar system...

Bruce Duensing wrote:Ill place some paddles on the patient and try to administer a shock...see if this board revives...

The board has to be accepting of other than ETH UFO theories. I kept getting attacked because I advocate Biblical Ufology that's supernatural and not ETH. It's very hard to get a discussion going of the EDH, but if one does manage, the only EDH that's common leans towards Gnostic worldviews, which are diametrically opposed to the Bible. I admit I let myself get redirected, but that won't happen again. I'm not out to argue with or judge Gnostics or believers in Western permutations of Eastern theories of consciousness. Even when I'm witnessesing, it's in the context of what appears to be happening with the paranormal these days.

IMHO, all the evidence is required to study the phenomena. That includes evidence that keeps getting ignored in every generation. Back when the Lorenzen's wrote about UFO occupants, the subject was ignored by most Ufologists. When the similarity of the phenomena to folklore was noted by Keel and Vallee, skeptics developed the PSH, but believers ignored folklore and stuck to their pursuit of nuts and bolts saucers. Alien abductions are virtually identical to succubus/incubus attacks from prior centuries, but even when the paranormal element is recognized, the Biblical view is rejected by most in the field because they want to learn from, or make friends with, the allegedly spiritually higher level torturers known as grays and their alleged nord masters.

Bruce Duensing wrote:Here's more conspiratorial evil spirits....a twist on the Reptilian theme. These are parallel paradigms that arose with the extra dimensional theory..as well as the state of the global free floating anxiety.Personally, I think they are straw men, much like the Trickster...its easier to assume as a belief system for some, its a symptom of our own inability to openly investigate this phenomenon with a reasonable amount of funding..the outgrowth of being mystified by something we dont comprehend, etc. I agree that we play a role but I think we see what we want to see.

Belief gets a bad rap these days. People clamor to prove they lack belief, as if that meant open minded. The Trickster is a theory arising from Native American folklore, but applied by Jung and others to other folk belief systems. I would not apply straw man to any belief system. Beliefs are complex and can be a mixture of truth or lies. Since it's not always possible to determine the truth of a matter, it's often said that there is no absolute truth and that all is relative.

We all have axioms. One's axioms might broadly define where one goes in argument, but axioms are influenced by experience as much as by beliefs.

Funding has nothing to do with it. We could have the whole stimulus package given to shore up the banking system and not have a clue as how to spend it in regards to a phenomena like this. A member of SETI would spend the money differently than a member of CSETI. People have to get beyond the idea that the government, or funding from the government can solve this enigma. That would only lead to a ufological state church which would be more oppressive than the ETH in the U.S. today.

My view is that as the End Times approach, there will be such a state church view of UFO's, supported by hard evidence and allegedly first contact. It won't be good for humanity and the theories promulgated won't be the truth, but truth is mixed with lies in the phenomena.

dr wu23 wrote:The whole 'aliens are evil spirits' thing seems wrong to me. It feels like we are trying to put the 'aliens' in a box we understand or feel comfortable with., in this case religion.

I feel comfortable with God, but not with demons. Nothing in the EDH or the End Times scenarios make me comfortable. It's not worth it for religion to posit it as a lie to create fear. Only as a harsh truth can it be accepted. There are beings in rebellion against God who wish humanity harm. IMHO, humans can't truly rebel against God because we are like children in relationship to adults. We see only part of the picture. All we can do is have temper tantrums and act like we're in control.

dr wu23 wrote:And the ETH is the same thing...we feel comfortable with it on a scientific level so it is the most used idea...but is it the right one?

It fits part of the phenomena, but the fit isn't good enough to warrant accepting it whole cloth. IMHO, the vastness of space makes scientific civilizations islands in the sky with limited abilities to communicate or travel between the stars. My personal theory is that there are no civilizations out there at a higher technological level because the universe hasn't had enough time to bring forth sentient life in such quantities that enough of them develop scientifically and have the ability to expand beyond their solar systems.

"The whole aliens are evil spirits" shouldn't seem wrong to you, if you apply the caveat that beings, whether physical or metaphysical, whether real or folklore, do things that are evil in action and scope. If my memory of your posts serves me, you don't think much of the concepts of good and evil outside of what society describes as such, and that what appears to be evil may not be evil, except from our limited standpoint. Correct me if I'm wrong.

dr wu23 wrote:In the end both ideas may be wrong.

I have sort of an Occam's razor to decide which worldviews are closer to the truth and which worldviews are further from the truth. Many religions want us to give up on God, or to give up God under the guise of giving up ignorance, but their attempts at selflessness often leads to a focus on the self, at least in terms of avoiding karma and gaining nirvana. Other religions want us to give up on ignorance, but throw innate truths out and replace them with speculation.

If we give up on good and evil, we aren't just giving up on religion, but giving up on any reference point that places us within the greater reality that all religions and esoteric philosophies see as lying behind this one, as a vast world lies behind a window's curtain.

dr wu23 wrote:Is Science the new religion of the future and will it solve all of our enigmas or will it only box us in and take us away from what really is?

Science is the religion, not of the future, but of the past 400 years. Still looking for you to define "what really is" to any sensible degree. Your unbelief is boxing you in, and by that I don't mean your lack of belief in Christ. People strive to not believe and end up half believing many strange things without getting anywhere.

dr wu23 wrote:I do honestly feel that the longer this whole ufo enigma goes on the more I am convinced it's not just run-of-the -mill space aliens....but ...?

My hope is it won't go on much longer in human history, but that's because I don't expect human history to go one much longer. if the End Times doesn't bring redemption, then the Singularity will prove that the future does not need us.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

Having read a bit more on Knight-Jadczyk tonight since my first post in this thread, I have to say that it seems to be a "scientific gnosticism". The eating behaviors of the reptilians haven't changed that much from Cooper's day, and I wonder how much the whole smagoogle is influenced by "V" (just as I wonder how much "V" was influenced by prior reptilian folklore). What has changed is making them a higher density species, whatever that means.

The only thing I'll posit about her idea of different densities is that the idea of lower worlds lacking density compared to more real worlds has been used in fiction before. In "The Great Divorce", the human spirits in bondage in the gray city seem quite real to each other, and their buildings seem real (though such buildings in that infinitely drab place cannot stop the incessant drizzle). When they are allowed to visit the outskirts of heaven, they find that heaven is more real than their world. It is not simply a place of fulfillment, lacking the punishment of selfish souls, it is infinitely more real. Hell exists as a tiny mote in a very small crack in the ground of heaven. Hell is not permanent and won't last. Night is falling and the only hope is that spirits make it their purgatory by fleeing to heaven, while giving up the selfishness and evil that separate them from God and eternal humanity.

Reptilians are popular in UFO lore because reptilian demons are popular in folklore. ETH believers make them just as physical as ourselves from another solar system, while New Agers make them differently physical and use either the jargon of theosophy or a pseudo-quantum physics jargon.

Are we moon food as Keel surmised? Are we property? if we are, I can't see how the New Age mantra of knowledge overcomes the evil entities suffices. Traditional prayer at least relies upon God, His angels and His good intentions for humanity. It does not leave humanity to face ultraterrestrial beings alone in the dark. Demons might feed upon fear, and they might feed upon ignorance, but they definitely feed upon human hubris that we are the masters of our own fate, the captains of our own souls.

IMHO, we are not property, though there are beings who claim we are. We are God's children by intent, though something happened in the distant past to create sin, which can separate us from God. If we are cattle, if we are moon food, then the beings who see us as such are in rebellion against God who created them. It's not just a service to self vs. a service to others. It's a relationship that's best described in analogies of a human family, but once described in terms of good and healthy rulership.

Carol Nistri wrote:well I hope it is wrong,but aliens never felt quite right either,cripes if it is demons if it is Satan no wonder why the government couldnt tell the people.How are they going to convince people of the cleverness of this entity,lets flush him out,kick him to the curb,he hasnt the power of God anyway,hes toying with us thats all.

Carol, often I've tried to get you to move beyond the ETH to the EDH. That was a mistake on my point. I didn't see the one thing that is common to most of your UFO posts.

My advice to you is to give up the word "government" in relation to this phenomena, whatever it is. The government is totally irrelevant to this phenomena, to it's history, it's development in folklore and culture and it's future impact on mankind, if any.

Dr.Wu,regarding your last post,I take it you dont think these creatures have an agenda? That there not creating a race of hybrids? I wonder how many of us would pursue the subject if it turns out that there are no aliens from another planet here to seek joining the human race? I daresay you would see a mass exodus if it turned out that these entities are truely beyond our ability to understand who and what they are.

Carol Nistri wrote:Dr.Wu,regarding your last post,I take it you dont think these creatures have an agenda? That there not creating a race of hybrids? I wonder how many of us would pursue the subject if it turns out that there are no aliens from another planet here to seek joining the human race? I daresay you would see a mass exodus if it turned out that these entities are truely beyond our ability to understand who and what they are.

Here's the book for you, Carol. It's fiction (Or is it? Only the PSH knows for sure!):

http://www.elfis.net/elfol4/e4term.html

I ordered my copy from Amazon.

dr wu23 wrote:The planet 'Solaris' 'communicated' (or refelected us) with us via the creation of lfeforms from our own conciousness and they could never really grasp what it was trying to do. Was it a language barrier or something even deeper like fundamental concepts of the nature of reality and what that means?

Solaris is interesting as a paradigm, but keep in mind that it's still a life form. If the phenomena is reacting to us the way Solaris reacted to the scientists, then that provides comfort food for those who don't think we're moon food. Unlike the phenomena we're discussing (alien abduction and whatnot), I don't see evil in the actions of Solaris.

So, I don't believe we've contacted an intelligence of a different variety that evolved in this (or any other universe) through naturalism. If we did, it would not mimic just our beliefs related to good, evil and supernatural beings. It would not just mimic our fears of the unknown by creating transmogrified monsters.

Therefore, the Solaris hypothesis seems to fail the first test of explaining the phenomena. Nice try though. We are bound to meet a Solaris type entity one of these days in this universe, or in another. God's creation is vast enough to encompass all types of sentience.