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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 148
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Vatican to investigate Marian visions at Medjugorje |
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Article about the ongoing phenomena at Medjugore and the Vaticans about face on investigating it.
http://binnallofamerica.com/tr6.30.8.html
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2294
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ongoing...? I thought those 'visions' were d one years ago.
Persistent and pesky tricksters apparently.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
Ongoing...? I thought those 'visions' were d one years ago.
Persistent and pesky tricksters apparently.
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Nope still plugging away, and I agree, it all sounds very ticksterish to me. I wonder what's got the Vaticans goat up enough to start looking into it after all this time??
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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I've [osted this in the wrong place haven't I? 
Can one of the mods have it moved??
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 396
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| roadghost wrote: |
| dr wu23 wrote: |
Ongoing...? I thought those 'visions' were d one years ago.
Persistent and pesky tricksters apparently.
:wink: |
Nope still plugging away, and I agree, it all sounds very ticksterish to me. I wonder what's got the Vaticans goat up enough to start looking into it after all this time?? |
Here's a Catholic site detailing why the visions are spurious. One of them is, I believe, the real reason the Church is investigating:
| Quote: |
2) An Apparition Teaching Error and Heresy
A) Fr. Tomislav Vlasic: "Do you feel the Virgin as she who gives graces (which is the traditional Catholic doctrine of Mary, the Mediatrix of All Graces) or as she who prays to God? (true also, but in conformity with some Protestant theology and not the fulness of Catholic teaching.) Vicka: "As she who prays to God." ("Is the Virgin Mary Appearing at Medjugorje? by Fr. Rene Laurentin, 1984, p.135-136, 154)
B) The Virgin was accustomed to reciting the Our father with the seers. (But how could Our Lady say: "Forgive us our trespasses," since she has none? At Lourdes, Our Lady was careful to keep her lips closed during all the Paters and Aves, reciting only the Gloria Patris.)
C) Mirjana: "I recently asked the Virgin this question (whether many souls are damned), and she told me that nowadays most souls go to Purgatory." (book by Fr. Faricy, p. 64)
(...a comforting thought, perhaps, but opposite to the teaching of Fatima, St. Louis de Montfort, Pope Gregory the Great, St. Alphonsus, St. Anthony Claret, St. Augustine, etc., etc.)
D) Oct. 1, 1981: "All religions are equal before God," says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317)
E) The Virgin: "I do not dispose of all graces...Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary." (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278)
F) "In God there are no divisions or religions; it is you in the world who have created divisions." (Faricy, p.51)
G) "God directs all denominations as a king directs his subjects, through the medium of his ministers" ("The Apparitions at Medjugorje," by Fr. Svat Kraljevic, 1984, p.58)
H) "Each one's religion must be respected, and you must preserve yours for yourselves and for your children." (Kraljevic, p.68)
I) "The Virgin added: 'It is you who are divided on this earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, like the Catholics, are equal before my Son and before me, for you are all my children." (Fr. Ljubic, p.71)
(...unbaptized Muslims equal to the baptized, who by this fact are the adopted children of God?) |
http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/9463/medjugorje.html
The first one alone, where the vision identifies herself as praying to God, goes against 19th century Catholic Mediatrix teachings, and is seen by the commentator as the Protestant view. Also, the vision recites the Our Father, whereas Mary is seen without sin in Catholic teaching.
Lastly, the vision says that all religions are human division, that God does not create divisions in men. Yet, all must be respected and maintained. That's more of a Universalist-Unitarian view than a Catholic.
The Church is investigating heresy here, not whether the vision is an actual appearance of their BVM. In my view, even the Marian apparitions accepted by the Church are suspect. Not just from a Keelian point of view, but also from a Protestant point of view.
Note the most Protestant of all the apparition's statements, that we must all pray directly to Jesus and not through an intermediary like Mary or a Saint. That's Protestant through and through. There's enough truth here, but I'd still worry that the apparition was preparing the world for a unified one world religion of the End Times, except that it says that all religions must be maintained by their followers. Whether that means don't convert to another or just pass your own religion down to your children isn't clear.
I do not believe that Mary appears to the faithful, or that saints possess people like in that Bulgarian Orthodox fire walking custom on Saint Constantines' day:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0130033/d1.html
Yet, the Medjugorje apparition has a message of tolerance that Eastern Europe needs. If my hopeful universalism is right, then Jesus died once for all, and is the Savior of the world, but especially of those who believe. Those who do not believe are still God's children and will hear the Gospel correctly without human doctrinal error or heresy directly from God in the World to Come. The Catholic idea of purgatory, while medieval and not Biblical is closer to the Jewish idea of gehenna than the Catholic view of hell. The Tanach (Old Testament) mentions sheol; the New Testament mentions gehenna and hades. Hell would be where some pagan Finnish goddess hangs out (probably text messaging to her girlfriend Isthar hanging out in the land of bunnies and colored eggs).
Christianity borrowed pagan holidays and baptized them, IMHO, the idea that anyone can be damned after death and hades is cast in the Lake of Fire is a pagan notion and those who believe it seem to be believing in Jesus + damnation (the evangelical definition of error is a group or person believing in Jesus + something else). I could be wrong, but if a hopeful universalism isn't true and we must decide for Christ in this lifetime only, then annihilation makes more sense when the whole New Testament is considered.
So decide wisely. I tend towards being a Calvinist, at least as far as I've observed people in this life, but Arminianism could be true instead, so I hope the Gospel gets through to you all before it's too late. Jesus died once, for all, and we need no intermediaries; but we must work out our free gift of salvation with fear and trembling.
That's all the preaching I'll do, since this is a thread touching on Christian topics and the paranormal. IMHO, God's decided where everyone is even before they are born, and I don't know how much real freedom of will we have in this life.
_________________
Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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