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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 148
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 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: The Return of Religion |
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Haven't read all this yet, so can't comment, but I thought I'd post it up to give us all an excuse to start barking at each other.
http://www.axess.se/english/2008/01/theme_scruton.php.htm
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1351
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Road
A good read. I have no doubt that someday we will have all the answers to Creation. The "bleeevers" have had thousands and thousands of years to prove their god exists and so far, they have failed and belief by faith alone is their only real answer...which is no answer at all!!!
Religion, per se, is not a bad thing...if it is kept personal and brings comfort to people. That is not the case, religion has caused wars, death and destruction. It has been fractured into so many denominations all proclaiming THEY have the truth. It has been re-interpreted, misinterpreted and used for personal gain and fame.
The bible is nothing more than a story that has turned into some kind of answer for everything!!
Yet, it contains many, many errors and contradictions.
Hopefully we are evolving enough intellectually to rise above all those primitive and erroneous ideas about god.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2254
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Good article overall ....and I agree wi th him that humans (at least many at this stage of evolution) do need a spiritual basis for their lives , but what should that spiritual basis be? Should it be some form of fundamentalism like we have now in all 3 monotheistic religions or a more ecumenical enlightened belief or path that embraces all metaphysics and denigrates none?
The problem imo lies with the hard core believers in all 3 major faiths and not with the more open minded people. These fundies are the ones causing problems in the middle east ...and elsewhere.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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roadghost
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I personally think the impulse to find spritual meaning is inherant in our species. Not for every individual maybe, but certainly something like the way many people are predisposed towards music or art or other forms of expression. It is just a part of the human experience. The particulars of religious choices or belief are just semantics, the core princples seem to be common across most religions or at the least closely related.
What concerns me is the rise of radical atheism alongside fundamentalist beliefs. Perhaps this is a natural response in the face of strident evangelising but it seems to be the strategy adopted by both sides is to attack indiscriminately any and all who fail to share your viewpoint. Surely dawkins must see the irony in this?
_________________
Now we must praise the keeper of the heavenly kingdom
The power of the Measurer and his mind-thoughts,
The work of the glory-father; as he, each of wonders,
the eternal Lord, established from the beginning.
Caedmons Hymn
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2254
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| roadghost wrote: |
..... The particulars of religious choices or belief are just semantics, the core princples seem to be common across most religions or at the least closely related.
What concerns me is the rise of radical atheism alongside fundamentalist beliefs. Perhaps this is a natural response in the face of strident evangelising but it seems to be the strategy adopted by both sides is to attack indiscriminately any and all who fail to share your viewpoint. Surely dawkins must see the irony in this? |
The core principles are similar in the 3 connected monotheistic religions for obvious reasons but are different in Vedic , Taoist, and Buddhist thought /philosophy.
I also think Dawkins et all are too strident when it comes to their comments on religious belief.....though I understand thier position well since they are fighting against thousands of years of theistic (and often closed minded ) belief that has dominated western thought.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 311
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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The link doesn't work for me. It just leads me to my ISP's search page. What's with that?
| roadghost wrote: |
| I personally think the impulse to find spritual meaning is inherant in our species. Not for every individual maybe, but certainly something like the way many people are predisposed towards music or art or other forms of expression. It is just a part of the human experience. |
It's programmed into us. I believe it's by God, but others claim it's nature and still others argue that we're living in a simulation created by basement level humans recreating their past virtually. Here's a good debate on the simulation argument, that also includes some critiques of Eastern views of consciousness by John Horgan, who wrote "Rational Mysticism".
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/254?in=47:20&out=
| roadghost wrote: |
The particulars of religious choices or belief are just semantics |
No, they're based on human experience. The same experience is interpreted differently in the West and in Asia, perhaps because our ways of thinking differ; yet when Asians immerse themselves in Western culture, they start to think like us -- I do not believe the same thing happens when Westerners immerse themselves in Asian culture.
IMHO, the Bible has a unique perspective, not simply in being monotheistic, but in describing the nature of time, the outcome of history and the human relationship to God differently than other attempts at theism. That's part of the reason I see it as inspired at the core, with any errors due to scribal mistakes since the original documents.
| roadghost wrote: |
the core princples seem to be common across most religions or at the least closely related. |
The only core principle that's related is the Golden Rule, expressed either positively or negatively. There are actually fundamental differences between religions at their metaphysical core.
I believe in divine revelation, though I do not hold to a strict inerrant view of the Bible, I do not see it as full of errors as Scam and other atheists do. She won't read it, but I recommend any other atheist or agnostic read "The Twilight of Atheism".
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/march/21.36.html
| roadghost wrote: |
What concerns me is the rise of radical atheism alongside fundamentalist beliefs. Perhaps this is a natural response in the face of strident evangelising but it seems to be the strategy adopted by both sides is to attack indiscriminately any and all who fail to share your viewpoint. Surely dawkins must see the irony in this? |
Radical atheism dates back to the early Enlightenment, when many (like Voltaire) weren't really atheists in the modern sense, merely critics of the Church's involvement in politics and tolerance for corruption. Some atheists chose that belief because they wanted freedom to be perverse (de Sade's covered in the book, as is Swinburne).
When it comes to fundamentalists of the period, they were rather tolerant and opposed to the corruption of state churches just like the atheists. They were more into personal piety than into the sort of political activism and almost mob psychology that you see at Republican rallies this time around. I respect Palin for her choosing life, but I wish she wasn't acting so darn folksy and ignoring the sort of hatred shouted out towards Obama at her rallies.
Today's evangelical/political mix is exactly the kind of thing that led to the Enlightenment, but of course, the Enlightenment went too far because it didn't stay about shining a light on reality but people doing what they wanted, regardless of the social or spiritual consequences to themselves or others. Angry atheism is the modern equivalent to French Revolution radicalism. Thank God that liberal democracy has no place for either auto da fe's or for guillotines.
Here are some quotes from "The Twilight of Atheism":
http://www.theforgottenways.org/blog/2007/11/18/the-twilight-of-atheism/
The table of contents:
http://www.alistermcgrath.com/atheismtwi.html
It's an interesting read, some freethinkers see errors of scholarship, but from what I've read of the period and the authors covered, he's accurate but not detailed. I'm more familiar with poetry and political theories covered than I am de Sade or Freud. McGrath was an atheist for many years but became a Christian after careful reflection that moved him to accept Christ.
_________________
Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1351
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Daniel
I read that first link.
"Both atheism and Christian belief are beyond the available evidence. "Both could be proposed; both could be defended; niether could be proved."
~
In MY definition of Atheism...there is no god, never was and never will be....so what "evidence" is needed?? There is NO evidence for that which never existed!!!
~
The reason I prefer not to read anything about nor written by Atheists is because I came to my own
conclusions and beliefs and I do not need nor want to be influenced by other Atheists. I would probably disagree with much of what they say too!!
I will not treat my Atheistic beliefs like those who believe in god do...by letting others tell me what to believe!!
That is why I do not try to convert anyone to Atheism....I believe it is up to each person to decide for themselves what they believe and what the Truth is in regards to the existence, or not, of god.
The only feet on MY path, are mine...and I don't want to see someone else's footprints on MY path!!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1351
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Daniel
Actually I have a NEW theory of Creation now!!
I think that yes, life did begin with the Big Bang theory...but...the missing link in our evolutionary chain is alien intervention!!
That also explains many of the biblical passages that strongly suggest both aliens and alien craft.
Most especially Ezekiel!!
lol I will leave you with this much for now.
It is a fascinating theory and one that I am VERY much drawn to.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 311
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| TheScamDetective wrote: |
Daniel
I read that first link.
"Both atheism and Christian belief are beyond the available evidence. "Both could be proposed; both could be defended; niether could be proved." |
Well, Roadghost's link does not work for me. This is what I get when I click on it.
http://search.grandecom.com/index.php?origURL=http://www.axess.se/english/2008/01/theme_scruton.php.htm
How evidence is interpreted is dependent on one's axioms. The funny thing is, I can put myself in an atheist frame of mind and follow their evidence from the standpoint of their axioms, but atheism seems less than rational, and more of an emotional choice based upon a reaction against theism as found in the Bible.
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
I will not treat my Atheistic beliefs like those who believe in god do...by letting others tell me what to believe!!
That is why I do not try to convert anyone to Atheism....I believe it is up to each person to decide for themselves what they believe and what the Truth is in regards to the existence, or not, of god. |
Don't capitalize truth, unless you want to let Dr. Wu tell you what to believe. Besides, you spend enough time telling others what you believe that you are as missionary as the average evangelical. I used to be that way, but I'm more of a Calvinist now. God's made His decision regarding each person and all the preaching in the world won't change a thing.
I only believe in theological discussion with other believers, or philosophical discussion that's not missionary with those who don't believe. I'm still 'heretical' (been called that lately) enough to be a hopeful universalist. The only people we absolutely know from the Biblical text who aren't saved are those who take the mark during the Tribulation and those few in Jesus' generation who claimed that Satan was behind his miracles.
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
In MY definition of Atheism...there is no god, never was and never will be....so what "evidence" is needed?? There is NO evidence for that which never existed!!! |
What other definition of atheism could there be? A-theism. Means no theism. No Eastern theism (i.e. Hinduism) any more than a Western theism (Judaism, Christianity, various polytheism). You have your axioms and I'm convinced God has chosen where He wants you to be. I still hold to the Talmudic saying that "Everything is determined, nevertheless man has free will".
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
The reason I prefer not to read anything about nor written by Atheists is because I came to my own
conclusions and beliefs and I do not need nor want to be influenced by other Atheists. |
Everyone's beliefs are based upon experience. The reason people read is to become enlightened in the true sense. To both question their own axioms and to clarify their experiences through the experiences of others. I'm inclined to believe you're just anti-intellectual. That's based on my observation of your posts over many years.
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
The only feet on MY path, are mine...and I don't want to see someone else's footprints on MY path!! |
Dr. Wu's made a convert, of sorts. 
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
Daniel
Actually I have a NEW theory of Creation now!!
I think that yes, life did begin with the Big Bang theory...but...the missing link in our evolutionary chain is alien intervention!! |
Unless you accept the strong anthropic principle, you can't say that life began with the big bang. You shouldn't say it even then. You should instead say that the universe came to be under conditions where life was inevitable over time. Other atheists would say that the multiverse theories put paid to the anthropic principle, but I don't see that.
Their argument is that innumerable big bangs create universes such that some will be conducive to life, but most will not be. That, in their minds, makes the anthropic principle (whether weak or strong) unlikely as it's just chance that any universes develop life. Yet, mystical understandings of God, from Jewish, Christian and even Hindu and Neo-Platonic sources posit both higher and lower worlds. So, multiverse theory is a given for modern cosmologists and ancient mystics besides.
As for the existence of non-life producing universes proving that universes with life are simply chance, imagine an ocean where most islands are deserts without sources of fresh water. They are not conducive to life. Most other islands are actively volcanic and aren't conducive to life either. Several islands were once actively volcanic, but now have sources of fresh water, and have evolving biospheres.
An observer of only the actively volcanic and desert islands could conclude that the existence of life is rare enough to be pure chance, and is highly unlikely. An observer of the few once volcanic but now bountiful islands would conclude that the bounty was designed intelligently.
The most likely case, observing them all is that chance cannot create life where no life existed before, that intelligence did not directly design life where it exists because the rest of the ocean relies upon chance. That instead, the ocean itself exists in such a condition that life is inevitable, but not in all locally observed environments.
The multiverse is just as anthropic as if only this universe were created by a Watchmaker. Hindus would explain it pantheistically, that Brahma clothes himself with the multiverse and is engaged in divine dress up (i.e. divine play). Jews describe it as God seeking to give pleasure to his creatures through the very act of creation. Christians would modify that by saying that at least this universe in the multiverse fell and is in need of repair, requiring the free choice of the Second Person to incarnate and to atone through His death for the disease known as original sin. An infection that affects the whole cosmos we live in, not just human nature.
Note that I'm simply stating the three major theistic understandings of life in the universe (especially intelligent life), not trying to preach. I'm not sure how a polytheist would describe it. Most polytheisms I've read about posit a non-intelligent source behind the gods, thus the gods are not really many God's but more like human beings writ large in story on the cosmos. Many evangelical Christians and some Jews believe those gods are fallen angels (with very different definitions of what fallen means), at any rate, we'd have to wait for a polytheist to surf by to get their view point on that. Any show up lately?
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
That also explains many of the biblical passages that strongly suggest both aliens and alien craft.
Most especially Ezekiel!!
lol I will leave you with this much for now. |
You are drawn to UFO aliens because they are your baalim, your godlings. When a person ceases to believe in God, they don't then believe nothing, they believe anything that can fill up the void left in their soul. If God permits, I'll pray for you when the nefilim arrive in their space craft. My expectation is that if it happens in our lifetime, I won't be here when that happens.
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
It is a fascinating theory and one that I am VERY much drawn to. |
It's a low brow version of panspermia and that simply removes the question of how did life arise to another physical environment in another part of the cosmos. While I don't doubt that either primitive life or life conducive materials arrived from space through impacts; and travels to space through impacts (and also as stowaways in spacecraft), if aliens created our biosphere, then we'd have to ask who created those aliens? The only two answers are no different than if aliens never show up: either it's chance or it's God.
IMHO, God created your aliens. Since I don't expect genuine ET aliens to show up any time soon, the ones who do will be quite terrestrial, but hidden from us due to our modern rejection of mythology, even when we don't reject religion. They will be the nefilim and you should be afraid when they arrive. Of course, I expect you'll be ecstatic and quite welcoming.
One of these days I'll have to ask God why he's a Calvinist. That's where my experience of other people leads me in theology. Yet, I'm still a hopeful universalist because I believe that God's sorting people into camps for and opposed to him is only a this world phenomena and not the way God relates to his children in eternity. Whatever choice for God people can't make in this world, because they're predisposed to reject him out of a sort of inborn oppositional disorder might be available in the World to Come.
Still, though I'm a hopeful universalist, God may not be. So don't argue with God at some point that I told you there was no way you could return and believe. All I can do is pray for people and debate ridiculous views that simply don't make sense and open people up to demonic manipulation. It's up to the Holy Spirit to open you up to the free gift of God's grace. I'll leave your soul in his hands.
My hope is that, as Julian of Norwich learned in her vision of Jesus, that all will be well, all shall be well and every kind of thing will be well.
Let it be so. Maranantha
_________________
Two Western, two Middle Eastern and two Asian religions expect the end of an age soon. Whatever happens. Don't take the mark. Don't be deceived. Search for the truth and the truth will set you free.
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