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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1325
Location: California
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 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Radio
"But does Existence need a creator?"
~
Not in the sense of some mythical, invisible, unprovable god.
For even if god exists...he/she would have had to come into existence at some point ..so who created god?
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"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2150
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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scam said: No more so than...who created god?
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Exactly so.....if one can postulate the apriori existence of 'God' then the same can hold true for reality itself.
The Universe may simply be. It exists and that's all we can say. The Universe may have always been and always will be just like the theists claim for 'God'. In this respect 'Reality' itself becomes 'God' (always was and will be) in an eastern mystical manner which of course doesn't work for the Christians. They want their cake and to eat it too....they want 'God' as the creator but want him to be an apriori existence .
Very convenient. 
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"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Easterners and Westerners alike want one thing, to avoid admitting "I don't know." It is only in how they avoid it that they differ.
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I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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OldTimeradio
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TheScamDetective wrote: |
| For even if god exists...he/she would have had to come into existence at some point.... |
And why is that? That's the meaning of "eternal." No beginning. No end. Just plain IS.
"I AM that I AM."
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OldTimeRadio
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OldTimeradio
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dr wu23 wrote: |
| Very convenient. |
We think so.
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OldTimeRadio
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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There is spiritual comfort and rhetorical invulnerability in such unreason.
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I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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OldTimeradio
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ataraxik wrote: |
| There is spiritual comfort and rhetorical invulnerability in such unreason. |
The ONE thing I've learned in 50 years of studying this stuff is that "unreasonability" is INVARIABLY the other guy's approach to knowledge.
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OldTimeRadio
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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If it isn't falsifiable, it isn't knowable. One may only have faith.
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I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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OldTimeradio
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ataraxik wrote: |
| If it isn't falsifiable, it isn't knowable. One may only have faith. |
You seem certain that the same standards which hold true for molecular chemistry must also hold true for religion and philosophy. Perhaps you are correct, but I'm not yet so convinced as you are.
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OldTimeRadio
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1325
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Radio
Having no beginning and no ending...and being eternal are not necessarily the same thing.
A circle has no beginning and no end ...but I would hardly describe it as eternal.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| OldTimeradio wrote: |
| Ataraxik wrote: |
| If it isn't falsifiable, it isn't knowable. One may only have faith. |
You seem certain that the same standards which hold true for molecular chemistry must also hold true for religion and philosophy. Perhaps you are correct, but I'm not yet so convinced as you are. |
You read me incorrectly. Religion and philosophy are human intellectual constructs, without mass.
I admit to poking the bull through the cage bars, in this case, the cage one finds himself in when he cites physics to disprove things he doesn't believe in, but finds he has no choice but to place certain things he does believe in outside the purview of physics, such as God, creation, etc., forced to do so without any reason beyond the fact that's the only way he can maintain the belief. Having to juggle the internal conflict must be very tiring.
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I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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OldTimeradio
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Of course I place God "outside the purview of Physics."
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OldTimeRadio
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Which renders God unfalsifiable, which makes belief in God a matter of faith, the only way a belief can be justified given there is no evidence for a God. A personal choice.
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I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2150
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ataraxik wrote: |
| Which renders God unfalsifiable, which makes belief in God a matter of faith, the only way a belief can be justified given there is no evidence for a God. A personal choice. |
Which is why I have always felt that agnosticism is really the best position since we just don't know....one way or the other.
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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Ataraxik
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 635
Location: Manteo, Roanoke Island, NC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, now I remember you from the Aggie meetings.
No offense to Old Time Radio, but he has posted publicly, fair game and all, and I had always wondered how people can slip in and out of the application of physics, such as using physics to debunk Phillip's belief in historical giant humans, but placing objects of one's own beliefs safely outside the scrutiny of physics for no apparent reason, except maybe because it protects the belief from too close of a scrutinization.
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I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
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