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OzScot
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Brisbane Australia
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: Biblical Nonsense... |
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Where to begin? There are so many contradictions and absurdities in the Bible that knowing precisely where to begin and what to deconstruct is really quite difficult....but here's just a few to ponder over....
Ignoring the fact that Genesis tells us plants grew before sunlight was created, the following is worthy of noting -
Genesis 1:29 (NIV)
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Now that's pretty unequivocal - 'every seed bearing plant', 'whole earth', 'yours for food'
Excuse me while I run out to the garden and enjoy al fresco some deadly nightshade or hemlock...be right back....
Genesis 4:15 (NIV)
15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so [a] ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him
Okay let me get this straight - The LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him? Ok, may I remind the reader that at this point in time there were only three humans alive on the planet....
Exodus 12:30 (NIV)
30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.
So why in Egypt was there not a house without someone dead? Because our Loving Father had ordered the death of every 'first born' is why....ah but wait - 'EVERY HOUSE'? So every house in Egypt had a first born in it eh? Statistically possible, but only in the sense that me winning the Jackpot in the National Lottery 6 weeks in a row is statistically possible....
In Proverbs (KJV) 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Ok so every word of God is true if pure yeah? And yet he openly acknowledges he lies to his prophets in order to get rid of them???? (See 1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, JE 20:7, EZ 14:9)...contradiction methinks....
Oh I could go on and on quite literally for hundreds of posts but these will do for now - and when I feel so inclined I'll add some more....
Ben
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graylien
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 174
Location: UK
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Isis
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 244
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Who said anyone would have to take the Bible literally?
That's only a bad habbit of certain cultural circles ....
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1334
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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How should the bible be taken?
If it IS the inspired word of god, then it should not contain contradictions, imo.
God is supposed to be omnipotent and incapable of error.
If you say....well man is the one who wrote it down wrong....then this omnipotent god chose the wrong men to inspire, so he really isn't "all knowing".
The god of the OT would have turned them into a pillar of salt....or worse!!!!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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dr wu23
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 2158
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Read those bad ass Bible verses graylien linked to......wow..some salty stuff there.
and who said the Bible wasn't a good read?
_________________
"Some say the valley has always been haunted ever since River ran.
The rippling waters fast as the colors conceal the Green Man."
Roy Harpur from The Green Man
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1334
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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lol and if you read Ezekiel 21-27 it says that the lord was going to stir up her lovers against her and also governors and commanders and chariot officers and men of high rank to cut off her nose and ears take away her children, strip her of her clothes and take her fine jewelry....to "put a stop to the lewdness and prostitution she began in Egypt!!!
What ever happened to ...love thy neighbor as thyself...and judge not lest ye be judged ...etc???
I guess robbery, mutilation, kidnapping, public humiliation and nudity are all right as long as god orders it!!!
I wonder if any preachers ever tell THAT story from the pulpit!!!
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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graylien
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 174
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
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I used to play the organ for a local Christian Science church, and if I remember rightly, the tale of Elisha and the Bears of Vengeance crops up in one of their standard readings. It was no doubt followed by some tortuous explication courtesy of Mrs Eddy that went straight over my head.
_________________
Gef - the Eighth Wonder of the World
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1334
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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There are many parts of the bible that are NEVER discussed in bible studies or preached about from the pulpit, in most churches!!!
They tend to skip or ignore the passages that have a barbaric scenario.
They also turn a blind eye to the many errors and contradictions in the bible.
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 198
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Isis wrote: |
Who said anyone would have to take the Bible literally?
That's only a bad habbit of certain cultural circles .... |
I take the Bible literally, I just don't take it literally in translation. Before one can understand the Bible literally, you must study the languages, the cultures, history and theological meaning for both that time and as interpreted in later generations.
What most of you numbskulls don't get is that the Bible works for people who take the time to study it. There's a local professor of classics who writes guest columns for the local paper and he glosses over the failures and problems in classical pagan culture all the while lambasting the Bible and believers. I'd rather have Biblical morality as universally applied to all times and places than to return to Roman culture which tolerated pederasty, slavery and cruelty in the arena.
There were pagans and philosophers upset at their culture, just as there were Biblical prophets upset at their culture, so the thing isn't that the Bible is 100% spiritual and perfect anymore than secular culture's classical antecedents are 100% imperfect.
I will give the Bible one thing, it does not gloss over the sins of people who trusted in God. It shows the good and the bad, and thus has been criticized as being a human work by secularists, who seem to have a magical thinking image of God that does not fit how God relates to mankind.
To me, the proof that the Bible is inspired by God is that it does not pull punches in depicting anyone's actions, whether man or God. Since I'm a "Darwinian Calvinist" so to speak, I don't expect many of you to get it. People seem to be born with a bias towards or against God, and their choices along the way move them closer or farther away from God. I could no more lose my trust in God than some of you could trust God. In fact, I see trust as the core of Biblical spirituality.
So, consider getting away from your blind disbelief and actually go out and study. You might learn something.
"Darwinian Calvinist": My belief that natural selection predisposes people to belief or disbelief, but never to true neutrality allowing unbiased inquiry. I see it as the naturalistic corollary to the theological view that God loves and chooses the elect before the creation of the world, but is indifferent to those predestined for damnation.
I assert that natural selection has been in effect ever since the Fall, and is thus spiritually unnatural and will be corrected when God brings this universe to a close and creates the new heavens and the new earth, dwelling with us in harmony for eternity; whether eternity is forever or simply an age that precedes another stage in spiritual closeness to God.
Of course, I'm a Christian universalist, and am intrigued by the Primitive Baptist "no hellers". I could be wrong and gehenna, hades, hell, sheol could be forever, but Revelations says that death and hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire, and mentions the new earth and the new heavens, but not a new hell, so that fits into Jewish views that Gehenna lasts subjectively for no longer than a year. "The Evangelical Universalist" by "Gregory MacDonald" presents a view that people cease to be sinners and leave the Lake of Fire and enter the New Jerusalem. Perhaps it will take people being punished by the sins they did not repent before they will approach God and ask for forgiveness? At any rate, God is patient but we can't assume he'll be patient forever.
So, I hope that everyone tests their axioms and questions their biases against Biblical religion. I hope everyone comes to Christ who is predisposed by natural disbelief. Your natural disbelief is a spiritual illness and it can be overcome with effort, but you have to be willing to go and study.
The only people who will get a pass in not believing in Jesus are Jews, who Paul says are spiritually blinded by God until the end times (so how can any Christian blame them for not believing?), and people who never heard the Gospel but who relate to God through seeing the evidence in nature and in their moral lives.
So, don't take the chance that the "no hellers'" and the English universalists are right. We could be wrong. While I don't see eternal punishment as God's will, but the will of the sinner separating himself from God, I still see it as a horrible possibility. It is not better to be a freethinker in hell than God's son or daughter in heaven. There is no freedom in self absorbtion whether intellectual or emotional.
_________________
My clan ancestor killed a wyrm. What Fortean feat did your ancestor accomplish?
Somerville clan motto: Fear God in Life
Material reductionism is the least substantial theory of everything that mankind has ever chosen to believe.
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 198
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| TheScamDetective wrote: |
| lol and if you read Ezekiel 21-27 it says that the lord was going to stir up her lovers against her and also governors and commanders and chariot officers and men of high rank to cut off her nose and ears take away her children, strip her of her clothes and take her fine jewelry....to "put a stop to the lewdness and prostitution she began in Egypt!!! |
Are you truly without intellect? Can't you see those passages use imagery to make a point about the history of Israel? That's obvious to anyone who reads the text with any literary education. I guess you just memorized what was required of a church secretary and believed what the priest told you was necessary for salvation? It's not just Catholics, but many Christians are like that and some of them fall away, like you did, because they never actually used their minds but relied upon their emotions and desires that pulled them away from God.
The Bible relates how God judges nations who oppress Israel and judges the Israelites who stray from worshiping God to the worship of pagan deities or relying upon foreign powers for safety. The prophets said that if they wouldn't be faithful to God the way spouses are faithful to each other, that the nations they chose as "their lovers" would abandon them and they'd be ravished by other nations without any protector. That was God's judgment and it happened as foretold.
You might not like the imagery, but it arose from styles of ancient middle eastern literature as well as from human experience. Though secularists might be content to say that the prophets simply interpreted the conquest of Israel and Judah after the fact by the large empires in religious terms, I see the hand of God in history, and post dating Biblical books is rather dodgy at times.
When both the righteous and the guilty were cut off in Jerusalem by the Babylonians, God protected the righteous and brought them back from captivity. That happened because of Cyrus, who Jewish tradition says was the son of Queen Esther, so he was raised Zoroastrian but was halachically Jewish. He showed tolerance to all religions in his Empire, but especially wanted the return of Israel. He's seen as a prototype of the Messiah as he was anointed by God for deliverance.
The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. scattered the Jewish people and they went from 10% of the Roman empire to a small remnant by the time that many Jews returned to the land of Israel after almost 2,000 years and the worst pogrom to date (ie the Shoah). How can you people not see the hand of God in history in the return of Jews to Israel? What other language was totally revived like Hebrew as a daily language and look at the blossoming of a land under Jews when it was sparsely inhabited by Bedouin peasants outside a couple of cities prior to the Zionist movement. As far as the cities, Jews were a majority in Jerusalem for centuries under Turkish rule.
What other nation scattered for nearly 2,000 years under persecution from Christendom and dhimmi status under Islam returned to their own land under their own power and renewed a language said to be dead in everyday speech, useful only for memorized prayers and scholarly study? So many are blind to the miracle of Israel that I see that blindness in Calvinist terms. No one truly objective could miss the oddity of the Jewish people and dismiss them as proof that God is the God of history and is not a myth, though myth points to God as well.
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
l
What ever happened to ...love thy neighbor as thyself...and judge not lest ye be judged ...etc???
I guess robbery, mutilation, kidnapping, public humiliation and nudity are all right as long as god orders it!!!
I wonder if any preachers ever tell THAT story from the pulpit!!! |
The laws are still in effect. Loving one's neighbor as thyself means looking out for their welfare, both physically and spiritually. You have only to compare the miseries of the lower classes in Indian cities to note that the West's secular social welfare network and child protection laws comes from Biblical spirituality and morality put into action, and not from religions that explain child abandonment on the streets or women and girls raped on the streets as karma.
Girls forced to live on the street in Cairo are gang raped too. so Islam fails to protect the children in their midst because they see children as wealth, forcing them to work in carpet factories while the parents chant jihad in the streets at every perceived slight to Islam. While much of Moslem morality is similar to Biblical, girls and women are often unwanted and treated badly. Witness the honor killings in Middle Eastern countries.
Similar problems in Eastern Europe arose from Communist policies and the suppression of Biblical morality and truth, such that when Communism fell, many took the Western secular route and felt free to do whatever came naturally to them, regardless of morality.
IMHO, both Islam and Hinduism fail when compared to Judaism and Christianity. Though they have the universal morality that C.S. Lewis noted as the Tao in the appendix to the Abolition of Man, societies that aren't Christian or Jewish have been hindered by theology in applying those universal moral laws. What has made the West a self correcting society is a blend of the best of Athens and the best of Jerusalem. That's found in historical Christianity and in Judaism, not in secularism or in non-Biblical religions.
Now, atheists advocating the death of Christianity and the return of secular society to classical values want to take the West back to Rome in more ways than one. That will lead to a worse horror than mankind has yet experienced, and I just hope that I'm not here to see it, and that my descendants aren't either. I guess that's why I'm a dispensationalist vis a vis the End Times. It won't be a time for LOL'ing at the Bible on the internet. Everyone who decides against God will know that they will be judged and they will hide wherever they can and hope that they die beforehand, but even their belief that death leads to annihilation will fail them in the end.
You are falling for a deception Scam. It will only get worse for you if you continue on this path. The same goes for the others who mock God but give credence to the most ridiculous cargo cult ETH beliefs or questionable paranormal beliefs designed to hide the evil that men are up against and cannot resist alone.
We can choose to be God's children, made in God's image, or we will become the property of something else, something that's been described as Satan by Christians and as the Ultraterrestrial whatsis by Keel. If you want to become moon food, then continue on your path, but I hope you repent.
_________________
My clan ancestor killed a wyrm. What Fortean feat did your ancestor accomplish?
Somerville clan motto: Fear God in Life
Material reductionism is the least substantial theory of everything that mankind has ever chosen to believe.
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graylien
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 174
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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So there aren't any homeless people where you live? Or rapists? Or children given up for adoption? Or people wasting their lives stuck in dead-end low-paid factory jobs?
Anyhow, I'd be interested to hear your take on the Inquisitions. Is the physical torture of heretics justified? And if not, then how did God's elect come to believe that it was?
_________________
Gef - the Eighth Wonder of the World
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 198
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| graylien wrote: |
| So there aren't any homeless people where you live? Or rapists? Or children given up for adoption? Or people wasting their lives stuck in dead-end low-paid factory jobs? |
There are true homeless and also the much more common sturdy beggar. Sadly, there are rapists. I myself grew up in foster homes. As for jobs, while it's not easy to change jobs for many, no one's life is wasted if they take care of themselves and their families.
What does any of that have to do with it? Since when did Christians say the world was perfect and redeemed? It's the atheists like Scam who say they like the world as it is, though they have hope to make it better.
My hope is that it will be recreated without the curse on nature due to the Fall. Before that happens, history will come to a close. Exactly how that happens is open for debate, but God will once again become active in His world. I believe it will be through the return of Christ, but others believe differently. It's enough to believe in the redemption.
| graylien wrote: |
Anyhow, I'd be interested to hear your take on the Inquisitions. Is the physical torture of heretics justified? And if not, then how did God's elect come to believe that it was? |
God's elect did not come to believe that torture was necessary. Some religious and political authorities believed that death for heretics was necessary to save their souls. Without active prophecy, without the return of Christ, people are guided only by their reason and emotions. Both of which fail at various times in history.
The traditional Jewish belief is that all humanity has a share in the World to Come just by being born, but that they can do great evil and turn away from God; thus losing their share. The most common Christian view is that
without Christ's intervention through God's free gift, no one is saved and all are damned.
I'm starting to feel like the Primitive Baptist universalist "no hellers" that this world is hell.
_________________
My clan ancestor killed a wyrm. What Fortean feat did your ancestor accomplish?
Somerville clan motto: Fear God in Life
Material reductionism is the least substantial theory of everything that mankind has ever chosen to believe.
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TheScamDetective
Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1334
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Somer
First you tell us that you take the bible literally and then tell me not to take it literally because it is imagery!!!
I HAVE studied the bible and I have never relied on a priest to form my own beliefs or opinions!!
~
"It's the atheists like Scam who say they like the world as it is, though they have hope to make it better."
~
I have never said I like the world as it is!!!
It just IS. Accept it, deal with it and try to make it better.
God doesn't live in the world...WE do...it is OUR responsibility to make it better or worse.
Unfortunately too many people would rather sit back and wait for god to "save them and the world".
_________________
"It's our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
Dumbledore
to Harry Potter
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Somerville Changeling
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 198
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TheScamDetective wrote: |
Somer
First you tell us that you take the bible literally and then tell me not to take it literally because it is imagery!!!
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You don't seem to be able to tell the difference. On the other hand, ignoring the difference allows you to make fun of the Bible. So, perhaps that ignorance serves a need for you?
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
I have never said I like the world as it is!!! |
You did once, when I said the world was fallen. You did add that you saw problems that men can correct, but I don't see any hope for changing human nature through naturalism that wouldn't create a worse monster without even the freedom to choose.
| TheScamDetective wrote: |
Unfortunately too many people would rather sit back and wait for god to "save them and the world". |
We don't sit back, we do what we can but also look forward to the day when God redeems the world. All atheism has brought the world is a culture of death, a culture that either elevates the collective over the individual or the self over responsibility. Just look at abortion and infanticide.
_________________
My clan ancestor killed a wyrm. What Fortean feat did your ancestor accomplish?
Somerville clan motto: Fear God in Life
Material reductionism is the least substantial theory of everything that mankind has ever chosen to believe.
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heretic5
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: a new view of Jesus |
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| Too many posts have been made in this thread for me to reply to each point in each one. So let me instead mention that we live in a virtual reality. One consequence of this situation is that intervention is a given, whether it appears to be a UFO, or something else. Even when there seems to be no intervention, there is; otherwise this virtual reality would not continue. This is because, by definition, no virtual reality is self-sustaining. Only a natural reality is self-sustaining. The only known natural reality is the entity who made and sustains the virtual reality in which all other virtual realities are nested. That is to say that said entity does not have an environment because space, time, mass and energy only exist in the imagination of that entity. So do we, albeit we exist in a virtual reality which is nested in another virtual reality. One consequence of this situation is that each originator of a virtual reality is a copy of the originator of all originators. Jesus became such a copy. All humans who ever were, are or will be will eventually be integrated into that copy. Some humans will have to be drastically refurbished before their integration. Hell is the refurbishment facility.
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